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<blockquote data-quote="Lonely Tylenol" data-source="post: 1967581" data-attributes="member: 18549">To borrow an example from another thread, take Hackmaster.&nbsp; It's not D&amp;D.&nbsp; It's like D&amp;D.&nbsp; It's based on AD&amp;D.&nbsp; But it's really, undeniably Hackmaster.&nbsp; When you're playing Hackmaster, you're not playing D&amp;D.&nbsp; It's different enough to stand on its own as something that you might be interested in buying in addition to D&amp;D, to increase your repertoire of gaming options.&nbsp; Somewhere inbetween D&amp;D and Hackmaster there is a dividing line.&nbsp; On one side is D&amp;D and its homebrew options.&nbsp; On the other is Hackmaster and its homebrew options.&nbsp; In the middle, there might be a grey area, but at some point you've stopped playing D&amp;D and are playing Hackmaster.It's a bit less of an extreme than putting coleslaw in places it shouldn't go, but it's the same idea.&nbsp; At some point, you're doing something different enough that it's no longer within what a new player should reasonably be expected to expect from a D&amp;D game.&nbsp; A new player might reasonably expect that his new DM might not want to use certain splatbooks, or psionics, or whatnot, and have a short list of house rules.&nbsp; But if the new DM has made significant changes to the task resolution system, and barred all the spellcasting classes, and barred every race except halflings and goblins, and set it in a world with no iron...that's beyond what a new player would expect to find in terms of changes from the standard game.&nbsp; It's not D&amp;D anymore.&nbsp; A player looking for a D&amp;D game would keep looking.Um, perhaps you have missed the point here.&nbsp; (It's a hypothetical example, not intended to reflect anything that might actually go on in gaming rooms, but rather intended to demonstrate a rhetorical point.)&nbsp; I think what fusangite was trying to get at is that if anything counts as D&amp;D &quot;so long as everyone's having fun,&quot; then ANYTHING counts as D&amp;D so long as everyone's having fun, no matter how ridiculous it is.&nbsp; It is perfectly obvious that putting coleslaw on household appliances is not playing D&amp;D, no matter how much fun one might have doing it.&nbsp; Therefore, the premise that &quot;anything is D&amp;D so long as everyone is having fun&quot; is false, demonstrated by his reducio ad absurdum.&nbsp; Which means: there is a point at which what you are doing ceases to be D&amp;D, and starts being something else.&nbsp; It also means: the people who claim that it's all D&amp;D so long as you're having fun are wrong.&nbsp; Which leads to: at what point does it stop being D&amp;D?&nbsp; Can that point be delineated?&nbsp; Going back to my example above, when does it stop being D&amp;D and start being Hackmaster, or Call of Cthulhu?&nbsp; If we can draw a line there, how much homebrew do you have to have before your game is as different from standard D&amp;D as Hackmaster is?&nbsp; When you reach that point, by similarity, you're no longer playing D&amp;D, but some other, unnamed game.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Lonely Tylenol, post: 1967581, member: 18549"] To borrow an example from another thread, take Hackmaster. It's not D&D. It's like D&D. It's based on AD&D. But it's really, undeniably Hackmaster. When you're playing Hackmaster, you're not playing D&D. It's different enough to stand on its own as something that you might be interested in buying in addition to D&D, to increase your repertoire of gaming options. Somewhere inbetween D&D and Hackmaster there is a dividing line. On one side is D&D and its homebrew options. On the other is Hackmaster and its homebrew options. In the middle, there might be a grey area, but at some point you've stopped playing D&D and are playing Hackmaster. It's a bit less of an extreme than putting coleslaw in places it shouldn't go, but it's the same idea. At some point, you're doing something different enough that it's no longer within what a new player should reasonably be expected to expect from a D&D game. A new player might reasonably expect that his new DM might not want to use certain splatbooks, or psionics, or whatnot, and have a short list of house rules. But if the new DM has made significant changes to the task resolution system, and barred all the spellcasting classes, and barred every race except halflings and goblins, and set it in a world with no iron...that's beyond what a new player would expect to find in terms of changes from the standard game. It's not D&D anymore. A player looking for a D&D game would keep looking. Um, perhaps you have missed the point here. (It's a hypothetical example, not intended to reflect anything that might actually go on in gaming rooms, but rather intended to demonstrate a rhetorical point.) I think what fusangite was trying to get at is that if anything counts as D&D "so long as everyone's having fun," then ANYTHING counts as D&D so long as everyone's having fun, no matter how ridiculous it is. It is perfectly obvious that putting coleslaw on household appliances is not playing D&D, no matter how much fun one might have doing it. Therefore, the premise that "anything is D&D so long as everyone is having fun" is false, demonstrated by his [i]reducio ad absurdum[/i]. Which means: there is a point at which what you are doing ceases to be D&D, and starts being something else. It also means: the people who claim that it's all D&D so long as you're having fun are wrong. Which leads to: at what point does it stop being D&D? Can that point be delineated? Going back to my example above, when does it stop being D&D and start being Hackmaster, or Call of Cthulhu? If we can draw a line there, how much homebrew do you have to have before your game is as different from standard D&D as Hackmaster is? When you reach that point, by similarity, you're no longer playing D&D, but some other, unnamed game. [/QUOTE]

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