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<blockquote data-quote="Emerikol" data-source="post: 6002152" data-attributes="member: 6698278">I have to comment even though I am feeding the fuel that is running us off the rails of this topic.1.&nbsp; Everyone would buy a Rolls Royce if it cost the same as a Ford.&nbsp; 2.&nbsp; Pathfinder is approximately the same cost as D&amp;D.So your analogy fails.&nbsp; What opened my eyes was a poll on this board.&nbsp; There were almost as many 3.5 players as Pathfinder players.&nbsp; This is in fact my own personal experience.&nbsp; So yes Pathfinder at times is outselling 4e.&nbsp; Let me emphasize &quot;at times&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp; I would guess that overall 4e slightly outsells Pathfinder if you look at the life of D&amp;D.&nbsp; But what is missed is that a TON of people are still playing 3.5.&nbsp;&nbsp; So it's hard to deny that the pool of all d20 OGL people (Pathfinder, 3.5e, retroclones) dwarfs 4e.&nbsp; Popularity is&nbsp; what the majority likes.&nbsp; Some people buy both games so they may like it equally.&nbsp; Obviously true popularity would be how often it is played.&nbsp; In that case I can personally attest that I own a lot of 4e books but don't play it.&nbsp; For the first year I bought in heavily before I came to realize I disliked the game.&nbsp; But I can guarantee you that maximizing profit is all WOTC is worried about.&nbsp; Obviously they want to produce a &quot;good&quot; game.&nbsp; A good game is one everyone wants to own and play.&nbsp; That is the definition of good when it comes to games.&nbsp; Because being entertained is entirely subjective.&nbsp;&nbsp; There is no other criteria.&nbsp; WOTC's behavior is all the evidence a person ought to need to see all of this.Back on topic:There are two types of &quot;improvement&quot;.&nbsp; The first is new better mechanics that pretty much everyone agrees is better.&nbsp; d20 roll high is good.&nbsp; Few dispute it.&nbsp; The second is new styles of play.&nbsp; This is very similar to styles of clothes.&nbsp; Styles do change over time but there is no objectively better.&nbsp; Old styles do come back too.&nbsp;&nbsp; There are a lot of different playstyles.&nbsp; If the group is enjoying a particular style then it's working.&nbsp; No need to go further.&nbsp; On these boards, my only point is that the designers should not become so insulated that they forget there are other opinions and styles.&nbsp;&nbsp; 4e's design team basically told us - this is THE way and if you don't like it you just need to try it more.&nbsp; At least thats how it looked to me.&nbsp; I think 5e's design philosophy is much better.&nbsp; There is no right or wrong.&nbsp; Only fun or not.&nbsp; And the best design is the one that is usuable to have fun in the style you prefer.&nbsp; No judgments.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Emerikol, post: 6002152, member: 6698278"] I have to comment even though I am feeding the fuel that is running us off the rails of this topic. 1. Everyone would buy a Rolls Royce if it cost the same as a Ford. 2. Pathfinder is approximately the same cost as D&D. So your analogy fails. What opened my eyes was a poll on this board. There were almost as many 3.5 players as Pathfinder players. This is in fact my own personal experience. So yes Pathfinder at times is outselling 4e. Let me emphasize "at times". I would guess that overall 4e slightly outsells Pathfinder if you look at the life of D&D. But what is missed is that a TON of people are still playing 3.5. So it's hard to deny that the pool of all d20 OGL people (Pathfinder, 3.5e, retroclones) dwarfs 4e. Popularity is what the majority likes. Some people buy both games so they may like it equally. Obviously true popularity would be how often it is played. In that case I can personally attest that I own a lot of 4e books but don't play it. For the first year I bought in heavily before I came to realize I disliked the game. But I can guarantee you that maximizing profit is all WOTC is worried about. Obviously they want to produce a "good" game. A good game is one everyone wants to own and play. That is the definition of good when it comes to games. Because being entertained is entirely subjective. There is no other criteria. WOTC's behavior is all the evidence a person ought to need to see all of this. Back on topic: There are two types of "improvement". The first is new better mechanics that pretty much everyone agrees is better. d20 roll high is good. Few dispute it. The second is new styles of play. This is very similar to styles of clothes. Styles do change over time but there is no objectively better. Old styles do come back too. There are a lot of different playstyles. If the group is enjoying a particular style then it's working. No need to go further. On these boards, my only point is that the designers should not become so insulated that they forget there are other opinions and styles. 4e's design team basically told us - this is THE way and if you don't like it you just need to try it more. At least thats how it looked to me. I think 5e's design philosophy is much better. There is no right or wrong. Only fun or not. And the best design is the one that is usuable to have fun in the style you prefer. No judgments. [/QUOTE]

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