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<blockquote data-quote="Emerikol" data-source="post: 6003389" data-attributes="member: 6698278">You can keep repeating this tired argument and it doesn't become more true with repetition.&nbsp;&nbsp; Hit points are an abstraction but they are real.&nbsp; When I hit your character with a sword he feels it just like your player does.&nbsp; What it represents to both of you is abstracted but both of you are aware of it.No one has made the case that D&amp;D is realistic.&nbsp; Big difference though from a criticism of it being dissociative.&nbsp; They are not the same.&nbsp; The character jumped and in that characters mind he fell to the ground.&nbsp; The player also thought the same thing.&nbsp; (as an aside I did tend to use alternate falling rules because this realism aspect affronted me but that is a realism argument and not a dissociative one.)Same for poison.&nbsp; The character drank it.&nbsp; The character fought off it's effects.&nbsp; Nothing the character doesn't know that the player knows.&nbsp;&nbsp; Same for the dragon.&nbsp; In the case of the crossbow bolt, you would die even at 20th level.&nbsp; At least in my campaign you would.&nbsp; I have tried repeatedly to clarify the distincts between realism (D&amp;D is not!), abstraction (D&amp;D is assuredly), and dissociative (pre 4e D&amp;D was not necessarily).&nbsp; Dissociative mechanics are specific things where the player and character have to think about something differently.&nbsp; A fate point is an easy and perfect example.&nbsp; If you can use some pool of resources to modify a die whenever you want but only so long as you have points in the pool, then that is dissociative.&nbsp;&nbsp; The character does not know about the pool.&nbsp; The character does not know why he suddenly got better this time.&nbsp; etc...You can keep snarking away but all you are doing to revealing ignorance on the matter.&nbsp;&nbsp; It is something precise.&nbsp; It would be better if you just said it doesn't bother you.&nbsp; A reasonable position.&nbsp; But denying it is ostrich head in the sand.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Emerikol, post: 6003389, member: 6698278"] You can keep repeating this tired argument and it doesn't become more true with repetition. Hit points are an abstraction but they are real. When I hit your character with a sword he feels it just like your player does. What it represents to both of you is abstracted but both of you are aware of it. No one has made the case that D&D is realistic. Big difference though from a criticism of it being dissociative. They are not the same. The character jumped and in that characters mind he fell to the ground. The player also thought the same thing. (as an aside I did tend to use alternate falling rules because this realism aspect affronted me but that is a realism argument and not a dissociative one.) Same for poison. The character drank it. The character fought off it's effects. Nothing the character doesn't know that the player knows. Same for the dragon. In the case of the crossbow bolt, you would die even at 20th level. At least in my campaign you would. I have tried repeatedly to clarify the distincts between realism (D&D is not!), abstraction (D&D is assuredly), and dissociative (pre 4e D&D was not necessarily). Dissociative mechanics are specific things where the player and character have to think about something differently. A fate point is an easy and perfect example. If you can use some pool of resources to modify a die whenever you want but only so long as you have points in the pool, then that is dissociative. The character does not know about the pool. The character does not know why he suddenly got better this time. etc... You can keep snarking away but all you are doing to revealing ignorance on the matter. It is something precise. It would be better if you just said it doesn't bother you. A reasonable position. But denying it is ostrich head in the sand. [/QUOTE]

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