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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6006152" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>I make no claim as to the relative size of the player bases who cleaved off with each rev-roll. The data are not available. Any 'theory' as to that size supporting this or that side of a debate is just wishful thinking. </p><p></p><p>Some very basic things about D&D have always led to structural imbalance. Vancian casting vs all-at-will non-casters, being one of the most painfully obvious.</p><p></p><p>Well, one reason might be consideration for others. Balanced mechanics may not let you do /everything/ you want to with your character, for instance, but they let everyone at the table come as close as possible to what they want without leaving anyone in a position of mechanical irrelevance.</p><p></p><p>Perfect balance, as is so often pointed out, is impossible. What's harder than impossible?</p><p></p><p>It was, indeed, unique in how successful it was. The important difference, I think, wasn't the content 4e, but the GSL vs the OGL. In the past, the initial 'splash' of rejection was short-lived, those rejecting the new thing had little to talk about after their initial disgust, and the only new, interesting things coming out were for the new system. The rejection faded away for lack of anything to latch onto. </p><p></p><p>With the OGL and 3pps ready to produce whatever the hold-outs wanted, there was no holding it back. As Pathfinder took off, feeding on the ire of the hold-outs, they, in turn, grew emboldened at it's success and 4e's 'failure.'</p><p></p><p>3.5 shows a good constrast. 3.5 was released to a storm of controversy, but it was released under the OLG with it's own SRD. 3pps had no reason not to go on making d20 stuff using the latest thing. The controversy was very real, but it didn't have teeth, because there was no 3.0-clone to wallet vote for.</p><p></p><p>5e, then, doesn't really need to worry about mechanics as much as it is making a show of doing - mechanics will never please everyone. The playtest is good to keep buzz going for the line through this no-real-products interregnum following the destruction of 4e by the edition war, but the real deciding factor will be how it's rolled out. If it's a d20 game with an SRD and it can generate /some/ 'excitement' 3pps will jump on the bandwagon and it'll have that momentum. The only danger is not making it attractive enough to past fans who have retro-clone support going (which, by now, is everyone but 4e - which can't be legally 'cloned' to anywhere near the extent other eds were), including Pathfinder, of course.</p><p></p><p>OTOH, if 5e 'goes it alone,' as a standard-issue proprietary system, it'll have every d20 producer competing with it, directly, using retro-clones whose fans already find to be more D&D than D&D. A tougher row to hoe.</p><p></p><p>If, inconceivably, 5e takes an anti-OGL approach like it did with the GSL, it'll have to appeal slavishly, indeed, to the retro-fans to have any hope of heading off a further explosion of support for Pathfinder and the other retro-clones.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 6006152, member: 996"] I make no claim as to the relative size of the player bases who cleaved off with each rev-roll. The data are not available. Any 'theory' as to that size supporting this or that side of a debate is just wishful thinking. Some very basic things about D&D have always led to structural imbalance. Vancian casting vs all-at-will non-casters, being one of the most painfully obvious. Well, one reason might be consideration for others. Balanced mechanics may not let you do /everything/ you want to with your character, for instance, but they let everyone at the table come as close as possible to what they want without leaving anyone in a position of mechanical irrelevance. Perfect balance, as is so often pointed out, is impossible. What's harder than impossible? It was, indeed, unique in how successful it was. The important difference, I think, wasn't the content 4e, but the GSL vs the OGL. In the past, the initial 'splash' of rejection was short-lived, those rejecting the new thing had little to talk about after their initial disgust, and the only new, interesting things coming out were for the new system. The rejection faded away for lack of anything to latch onto. With the OGL and 3pps ready to produce whatever the hold-outs wanted, there was no holding it back. As Pathfinder took off, feeding on the ire of the hold-outs, they, in turn, grew emboldened at it's success and 4e's 'failure.' 3.5 shows a good constrast. 3.5 was released to a storm of controversy, but it was released under the OLG with it's own SRD. 3pps had no reason not to go on making d20 stuff using the latest thing. The controversy was very real, but it didn't have teeth, because there was no 3.0-clone to wallet vote for. 5e, then, doesn't really need to worry about mechanics as much as it is making a show of doing - mechanics will never please everyone. The playtest is good to keep buzz going for the line through this no-real-products interregnum following the destruction of 4e by the edition war, but the real deciding factor will be how it's rolled out. If it's a d20 game with an SRD and it can generate /some/ 'excitement' 3pps will jump on the bandwagon and it'll have that momentum. The only danger is not making it attractive enough to past fans who have retro-clone support going (which, by now, is everyone but 4e - which can't be legally 'cloned' to anywhere near the extent other eds were), including Pathfinder, of course. OTOH, if 5e 'goes it alone,' as a standard-issue proprietary system, it'll have every d20 producer competing with it, directly, using retro-clones whose fans already find to be more D&D than D&D. A tougher row to hoe. If, inconceivably, 5e takes an anti-OGL approach like it did with the GSL, it'll have to appeal slavishly, indeed, to the retro-fans to have any hope of heading off a further explosion of support for Pathfinder and the other retro-clones. [/QUOTE]
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