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<blockquote data-quote="triqui" data-source="post: 6006166" data-attributes="member: 57948"><p>Balanced means they are equally valid. </p><p>For example, in 3e, Stats like Charisma and Constitution aren't balanced. Charisma means jack, and you can dump it without any problem, except for the characters that need it as a primary stat (like bards and sorcererers). Constitution, on the other hand, is absolutelly vital (pun intended). If you dump it, you'll die, because it is just too damn powerful (modifying your hp every level). </p><p>In 4e, while there is not a perfect balance, the stats are much closer. You could dump Con, instead of Cha, because Con is balanced with Cha: none of them is incredibly superior to the other, as in 3e. Both will give you benefits if you have them high, but the benefit of a high CON isn't as overpowered as in 3e, and the benefit of a high CHA is much better than in 3e (you get everything 3e gives you, plus Will defense).</p><p></p><p>So yes, the impossibility to dump CON in 3e makes that edition abilities less balanced. That's what balance menas: all weight the same. It's not true in 3e, a few abilities weight much more than the rest.</p><p> That's one of the major flaws of 3e way of thinking. The belief that PC and NPC are equal, and what makes PC balanced also has to make NPC balanced. It does not. PC live in a completelly different standards. Nobody cares if the Goblin King spent more points in his abilities, or has more money in magic items than his vassals. But a lot of players would complain if PC rangers have more points for his abilities than, say, PC fighters. Outside of encounters, the monster abilities do not cause problems, because they are there for DM plot advance. If you need a Dragon to create a ritual that builds a black-hole that threat the entire cosmos as part of your plot advance, so be it. If you don't need it, who cares?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>True. So what?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No.</p><p>Chess is balanced. You can't beat Kasparov. That does not make Chess unbalanced, makes you an awful player if compared with Kasparov. Chess is balanced when Kasparov plays against Karpov. Anything that has enough complexity to be able to develop system mastery, is going to have some people more adept to it than others. That includes Rock-scissors-paper. So unless you want to keep the system down to "tic-tac-toe" or "toss a coin" level, you always will have some free thinking players with different skill levels at the game.</p><p></p><p>On the other hand, even the best optimizers of D&D, can`t build a fighter that plays on the same league than a optimized full spellcaster. So its imbalance is not a matter of one player being worse than the other at it, but one class being superior to others. It's like playing chess without rooks.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> If the classes are balanced among them, that will be so in whatever scenario they run. You might find the game to be harder, or easier, if you don't run in the envisioned scenario, but the balance among them is there. If you run fewer combats per day than the designers envisioned, then daily powers are going to make those combats a cakewalk. But that's true for both the fighter, or the wizard, as they both have daily powers. It doesn't hold that way in 3e, because there's much more disparity between classes. If you happen to play fewer encoutners per day, classes with dailies will outshine those without them, going nova.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="triqui, post: 6006166, member: 57948"] Balanced means they are equally valid. For example, in 3e, Stats like Charisma and Constitution aren't balanced. Charisma means jack, and you can dump it without any problem, except for the characters that need it as a primary stat (like bards and sorcererers). Constitution, on the other hand, is absolutelly vital (pun intended). If you dump it, you'll die, because it is just too damn powerful (modifying your hp every level). In 4e, while there is not a perfect balance, the stats are much closer. You could dump Con, instead of Cha, because Con is balanced with Cha: none of them is incredibly superior to the other, as in 3e. Both will give you benefits if you have them high, but the benefit of a high CON isn't as overpowered as in 3e, and the benefit of a high CHA is much better than in 3e (you get everything 3e gives you, plus Will defense). So yes, the impossibility to dump CON in 3e makes that edition abilities less balanced. That's what balance menas: all weight the same. It's not true in 3e, a few abilities weight much more than the rest. That's one of the major flaws of 3e way of thinking. The belief that PC and NPC are equal, and what makes PC balanced also has to make NPC balanced. It does not. PC live in a completelly different standards. Nobody cares if the Goblin King spent more points in his abilities, or has more money in magic items than his vassals. But a lot of players would complain if PC rangers have more points for his abilities than, say, PC fighters. Outside of encounters, the monster abilities do not cause problems, because they are there for DM plot advance. If you need a Dragon to create a ritual that builds a black-hole that threat the entire cosmos as part of your plot advance, so be it. If you don't need it, who cares? True. So what? No. Chess is balanced. You can't beat Kasparov. That does not make Chess unbalanced, makes you an awful player if compared with Kasparov. Chess is balanced when Kasparov plays against Karpov. Anything that has enough complexity to be able to develop system mastery, is going to have some people more adept to it than others. That includes Rock-scissors-paper. So unless you want to keep the system down to "tic-tac-toe" or "toss a coin" level, you always will have some free thinking players with different skill levels at the game. On the other hand, even the best optimizers of D&D, can`t build a fighter that plays on the same league than a optimized full spellcaster. So its imbalance is not a matter of one player being worse than the other at it, but one class being superior to others. It's like playing chess without rooks. If the classes are balanced among them, that will be so in whatever scenario they run. You might find the game to be harder, or easier, if you don't run in the envisioned scenario, but the balance among them is there. If you run fewer combats per day than the designers envisioned, then daily powers are going to make those combats a cakewalk. But that's true for both the fighter, or the wizard, as they both have daily powers. It doesn't hold that way in 3e, because there's much more disparity between classes. If you happen to play fewer encoutners per day, classes with dailies will outshine those without them, going nova. [/QUOTE]
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