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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6021519" data-attributes="member: 6696971">@<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/members/pemerton.html" target="_blank">pemerton</a> Yup.  I read your post in that thread.  The beholder fight over the underground river was an exceedingly well contrived fight (and seemed to live up to expectations) from the reading of your post. What I was attempting to do there was a pre-emptive parry of a rejoinder (a misconstruance) that I foresaw as inevitable.  I, in no way agree with the rejoinder but I figured I should comment before that one got away from me.  4e is in no way "unwieldy".  Not in Paragon tier or Epic tier.  However, inevitably (due to complexities added into the system), the mode of play becomes more complex and thus "more unwieldy by comparison".  However, in the hands of proficient players/DMs, it is a delight and the unwieldiness of Paragon and Epic tier (relative to early Heroic) is unnoticeable when you come from prior D & D iterations.  What's more, there are great features of 4e that actually help with the "relative unwieldiness."   For instance, (and after reading your post above you have already considered and used much/most of those tools so oncoming Epic tier play shouldn't be an issue for you) there are very effective tools in place to deal with the action economy manipulation proliferation of PCs as the game progresses (and their means to mitigate damage): 1 - Challenge the PCs with more hazards (fantastical and mundane).  These can be intra-encounter or extra-encounter.  Stun, Weakened and Blind conditions are almost universally irrelevant here. 2 - The environments that PCs will be navigating are likely extra-planar in nature or remote, toxic and/or extremely inhospitable.  Create environmental conditions inherent to these environments that are either constantly in effect or use the Condition Track and subject the PCs to things daily.  Something as simple/mundane as a low oxygen or extreme humidity environment should be extraordinarily taxing, even for the most well-conditioned.  Something as simple as claiming 1 surge from all the PCs (no save) while in an environment is simple but effective.  Especially coupled with keeping the heat on with hazards and encounters.  If you want more complexity and a greater threat just use the Condition Track. 3 - Physically taxing Skill Challenge Failures that cost Healing Surges.I've run a campaign through level 26 and those 3 (which, to me, are quite intuitive) are extremely effective as they keep the pressure on PCs through HS attrition (while they endure other stressors), utility encounter power attrition (to deal with these threats and mitigate nonsentient hostility/damage) and by leveraging threats outside of the action economy (where a large source of their power proliferation comes from).</blockquote>

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