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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mistwell" data-source="post: 8227335" data-attributes="member: 2525">The premise of "flee" assumes they already engaged in a combat encounter. "Decided to leave" or "Decided to negotiate" are not "flee" situations. So I am starting where the thread started.If you don't like that, that's fine. How about you respond to the scenario where the party has already started combat, they no longer thing they can win, and comment how you think that goes from there? If you don't want to talk about that aspect, then maybe ignore my posts in the thread? But nit picking that you don't like where I started to talk about the scenario accomplishes nothing.I used the presented sample, a dragon. But MOST monsters in the monster manual have a speed of at least the slowest member of a common adventuring party. And MOST monsters the party would attack will want to kill you, particularly if you just tried to kill them. If you want to talk about exceptions to that rule, that's fine. I am talking about the general rule though. A cave which the monster cannot navigate, in general, makes no sense. The monster got there to begin with! It's their lair! And again, if you don't like those completely normal, common scenarios for something like a dragon or similar encounters...don't comment on it then. Telling me you can imagine other scenarios doesn't do anything. OK, you can imagine other scenarios but what do you have to say about this one?If you flee at a speed which, even with a full retreat where you are moving your full speed twice in a round and the foe can move their full speed once in a round and also attack you, then it's certain death. You will never get away. You will die from attacks, and as you're not attacking back there is no escape. That's certain death.I never, never one time, said or implied in any way shape or form, that the players were coming at it from a "if the DM put it here it's a level-appropriate encounter" mindset. That was always your strawman. I already corrected your misunderstanding of that position. Please stop repeating it as if that's my position. It's not. Clear?I don't think the scenario presented is that niche or unusual. Party runs into a creature that's more powerful than they thought, or the party is weaker than they though. They start combat and realize they're outmatched. Do they flee or continue the fight?I am commenting on how darn hard it is to flee in D&D. It's essentially a non-choice in many common scenarios. If the party flees, the monster can usually just kill them for fleeing. Because the mechanics of fleeing are such that monsters have a huge advantage against them. I think the game designers realize this, at least in part. There are a handful of mid and higher level spells intended to allow a party to basically pull the emergency rip cord and get the heck out of there. And I think they're there, at least in part, because fleeing by foot is usually a disaster.</blockquote>

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