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<blockquote data-quote="Jack Daniel" data-source="post: 5367194" data-attributes="member: 694">Eh... I call non sequitur.&nbsp; It does not follow that &quot;trusting in the DM&quot;&nbsp; leads to &quot;the DM railroading everybody.&quot;&nbsp; (And as far as I can tell,&nbsp; that's all that the WoD game that you described seems to be -- a poorly&nbsp; concealed railroad.)&nbsp; If the DM is fairly applying the rules in&nbsp; the background, the players really don't need to be aware of the&nbsp; details.&nbsp; What about new players, who just don't know the rules that&nbsp; well?&nbsp; Are they not playing an RPG?&nbsp; Likewise, even with numbers and&nbsp; feats on the character sheet, there is no guarantee of consistency.&nbsp;&nbsp; Unless the DM is rolling the dice in front of everybody and annoucning&nbsp; the monster's HP totals and Armor Classes as he goes along, he will always be free to fudge whatever he wants -- and the players will never know, because most of the time, there's no such thing as &quot;cheating&quot; or &quot;breaking the rules&quot; for the DM.I figured as much.&nbsp; It's hard to imagine a 3e game without minis.&nbsp; And I did use them most of the time for my &quot;mechanics hidden&quot; campaign; it didn't detract from anything.&nbsp; But I would offer one more piece of advice: to extend the overall &quot;deep immersion&quot; feel of such a campaign even to tactical minis combat, it's helpful to require that the players fully describe their actions for the round before they are permitted to touch/move their miniature.&nbsp; Even if it's only a simple statement like &quot;I move thirty feet into the melee and attack the orcs,&quot; players (at least in my experience) will catch on pretty quickly that declaring combat actions is a great opportunity to get creative with both what they choose to do, and how they describe it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Jack Daniel, post: 5367194, member: 694"] Eh... I call non sequitur. It does not follow that "trusting in the DM" leads to "the DM railroading everybody." (And as far as I can tell, that's all that the WoD game that you described seems to be -- a poorly concealed railroad.) [I]If [/I]the DM is fairly applying the rules in the background, the players really don't need to be aware of the details. What about new players, who just don't know the rules that well? Are they not playing an RPG? Likewise, even with numbers and feats on the character sheet, there is no guarantee of consistency. Unless the DM is rolling the dice in front of everybody and annoucning the monster's HP totals and Armor Classes as he goes along, he will [I]always[/I] be free to fudge whatever he wants -- and the players will [I]never [/I]know, because most of the time, there's no such thing as "cheating" or "breaking the rules" for the DM. I figured as much. It's hard to imagine a 3e game without minis. And I did use them most of the time for my "mechanics hidden" campaign; it didn't detract from anything. But I would offer one more piece of advice: to extend the overall "deep immersion" feel of such a campaign even to tactical minis combat, it's helpful to require that the players fully describe their actions for the round before they are permitted to touch/move their miniature. Even if it's only a simple statement like "I move thirty feet into the melee and attack the orcs," players (at least in my experience) will catch on pretty quickly that declaring combat actions is a great opportunity to get creative with both what they choose to do, and how they describe it. [/QUOTE]

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