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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5367555" data-attributes="member: 87792">And players who actually give a damn about their character sheets matching their vision of their characters will be utterly hosed by this approach.&nbsp; D&amp;D is a very high crunch game with a massive amount of specificity.&nbsp; There is a huge difference in play between clerical healing and Lay On Hands and by hardcoding while not showing the players you seek to undermine player involvement.&nbsp; And then blame the players when you are blindfolding them while giving them weird D&amp;D specific nonsense like Vancian Magic.&nbsp; Or the highly cinematic 4e moves.&nbsp;&nbsp;No.&nbsp; The argument is that you've just wrecked my attempts at a detailed backstory.&nbsp; I do not currently know what I am capable of.&nbsp; The very denseness of a character sheet gives me ideas and twists to my backstory.&nbsp; And because D&amp;D has specific and detailed powers, I will know about them.&nbsp; I know in character that I have the ability to lay on hands, that I'm a master with the longsword, and that my mount was sent by the Gods.&nbsp; Or I know that I'm a cleric and every damn spell I prayed for - or a wizard and every spell written in my spellbook and how much I can prepare and what levels of spells they are.&nbsp; The only alternative is massive amnesia.&nbsp; Now you can argue that I don't know whether I have a 16 or a 18 dex and whether my climb walls chance is 60% or 70%.&nbsp; But that's what the dice are for.&nbsp; To provide this level of uncertainty about success.&nbsp;&nbsp;And control of my character sheet is not about razor-optimisation.&nbsp; I can do that easily, but very seldom bother.&nbsp; By taking away my character sheet I know there's a lot that's specified that I as the player do not know about.&nbsp; You have therefore forcibly given my character massive amnesia as I am going to be worried about trampling over what you have specified my character to be without consulting me.&nbsp;If the only way you can challenge me is by giving my character brain damage, you should be DMing a different game - or none at all.&nbsp;&nbsp;You assume that the only reason to want to actually understand your character is to min max.&nbsp; Empathy fail, and civility fail.&nbsp; (And for the record you just want a relatively balanced game there - 4e works in heroic tier although you start getting some seriously nasty stuf in paragon).&nbsp;There are two different types of creative people.&nbsp; Those who find it easiest to be creative using a blank sheet of paper and those who really use limits and pre-existing factors for inspiration.&nbsp; You are utterly hosing the creative process of those of us who use the limits by putting in detailed and specific ones (the D&amp;D structure) and then concealing what they are.&nbsp;&nbsp;If you aren't getting players to roleplay in D&amp;D, have you tried looking at what you are doing as a DM?&nbsp; I have no problem with it in my games.&nbsp;The problem is that D&amp;D is the wrong game to do things this way.&nbsp; What you need is a rules-light system like Spirit of the Century, Savage Worlds, or Dread (I believe Burning Wheel would also qualify but don't own a copy).&nbsp; If you were to try a Spirit of the Century game where the PCs only knew some of their aspects and soemthing about their skills, I think it would work well - in Dread there aren't even mechanical numbers to worry about.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5367555, member: 87792"] And players who actually give a damn about their character sheets matching their vision of their characters will be utterly hosed by this approach. D&D is a very high crunch game with a massive amount of specificity. There is a huge difference in play between clerical healing and Lay On Hands and by hardcoding while not showing the players you seek to undermine player involvement. And then blame the players when you are blindfolding them while giving them weird D&D specific nonsense like Vancian Magic. Or the highly cinematic 4e moves. No. The argument is that you've just wrecked my attempts at a detailed backstory. I do not currently know what I am capable of. The very denseness of a character sheet gives me ideas and twists to my backstory. And because D&D has specific and detailed powers, I will know about them. I know in character that I have the ability to lay on hands, that I'm a master with the longsword, and that my mount was sent by the Gods. Or I know that I'm a cleric and every damn spell I prayed for - or a wizard and every spell written in my spellbook and how much I can prepare and what levels of spells they are. The only alternative is massive amnesia. Now you can argue that I don't know whether I have a 16 or a 18 dex and whether my climb walls chance is 60% or 70%. But that's what the dice are for. To provide this level of uncertainty about success. And control of my character sheet is not about razor-optimisation. I can do that easily, but very seldom bother. By taking away my character sheet I know there's a lot that's specified that I as the player do not know about. You have therefore forcibly given my character massive amnesia as I am going to be worried about trampling over what you have specified my character to be without consulting me. If the only way you can challenge me is by giving my character brain damage, you should be DMing a different game - or none at all. You assume that the only reason to want to actually understand your character is to min max. Empathy fail, and civility fail. (And for the record you just want a relatively balanced game there - 4e works in heroic tier although you start getting some seriously nasty stuf in paragon). There are two different types of creative people. Those who find it easiest to be creative using a blank sheet of paper and those who really use limits and pre-existing factors for inspiration. You are utterly hosing the creative process of those of us who use the limits by putting in detailed and specific ones (the D&D structure) and then concealing what they are. If you aren't getting players to roleplay in D&D, have you tried looking at what you are doing as a DM? I have no problem with it in my games. The problem is that [I]D&D[/I] is the wrong game to do things this way. What you need is a rules-light system like Spirit of the Century, Savage Worlds, or Dread (I believe Burning Wheel would also qualify but don't own a copy). If you were to try a Spirit of the Century game where the PCs only knew some of their aspects and soemthing about their skills, I think it would work well - in Dread there aren't even mechanical numbers to worry about. [/QUOTE]

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