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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5368515" data-attributes="member: 87792">And most sensible people with experience of multiple systems wouldn't even try.&nbsp; As I said, I don't need to mix milk and lemon juice to know it's a disgusting drink.&nbsp;&nbsp;The trouble is that the characters must.&nbsp; Mechanical effects are what stands between them (in character) and death or even accidental suicide.&nbsp; If the wizard doesn't know he can cast fireball, he's dangerous.&nbsp; And he damn well needs to know whether fireball is a 20' radius explosion or whether it fills a set volume and casting it in kobold tunnels or castle corridors is suicidal.&nbsp;At that point even in theory the players need to blind themselves to things their characters would care about.&nbsp; And that's really going to help them roleplay.&nbsp; Now if you want to instead go for an effects-based spontaneous magic system rather than one with predetermined hard-coded spells, a lot of the objections weaken or even evaporate.&nbsp; But D&amp;D is not such a system.&nbsp; Which is why a lot of us have been suggesting that other systems that would suit the idea better.&nbsp;&nbsp;Of course.&nbsp; And this is where the idea is revealed to be an absolutely stupid one.&nbsp; The characters should know what they are able to do and roughly how effective it is.&nbsp; The devil, as always, is in the details.&nbsp; By stripping the character sheet from the character, you have ensured that they do not know what they can do or what powers they have.&nbsp; The only way to explain this in such a detailed system is giving the PCs amnesia.&nbsp; Which means that the DM is pitching a game in which all the players are playing characters with brain damage.&nbsp; (If I had to play in such a game I'd either submit a punch drunk fighter, a wizard who'd done too much Vancian casting, or a Cleric who'd had his mind blown through a Commune spell.)If the system is relatively light with effects based magic, the brain damage issue goes away - the very specific nature of the D&amp;D rules is the problem here.&nbsp; But at that point you have all the advantages of the DM being the one keeping the character sheet without the DM needing to put the extra work in.&nbsp;But knowing whether you heal through spellcasting or Lay On Hands or even through music should be screamingly obvious.&nbsp; Armour, weapons, feats, spells, class features.&nbsp; All obvious with a very few exceptions (Toughness being the obvious one).&nbsp; The only thing that is defensible unless the party is a theme party with amnesia is for the DM to keep the exact numbers secret.&nbsp; At which point, why bother?&nbsp;And if the DM accidently wrote &quot;Wizard&quot; on the character sheet when the character concept was cloistered cleric of Bocobob or Ioun?&nbsp; The player can roleplay a desire for turning - but can go whistle.&nbsp;&nbsp;This is why D&amp;D is the wrong game to try this sort of nonsense in.&nbsp; There is a significant difference between a Paladin, a Fighter, and a Fighter/Cleric.&nbsp; And IC the character ought to know his magical capabilities (unless he's taken too many knocks to the head).&nbsp; Remember Clerics in D&amp;D (pre-4e) wear heavy armour and fight in the front lines.&nbsp;An honest pitch for this game would seem to be &quot;I don't like the way you focus on your character sheets.&nbsp; Therefore want to give all your characters brain damage so they stop remembering what they are good at.&quot;&nbsp; A better approach would be a different game with shorter character sheets, of which many have been named.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5368515, member: 87792"] And most sensible people with experience of multiple systems wouldn't even try. As I said, I don't need to mix milk and lemon juice to know it's a disgusting drink. The trouble is that the characters [I]must[/I]. Mechanical effects are what stands between them (in character) and death or even accidental suicide. If the wizard doesn't know he can cast fireball, he's dangerous. And he damn well needs to know whether fireball is a 20' radius explosion or whether it fills a set volume and casting it in kobold tunnels or castle corridors is suicidal. At that point even in theory the players need to blind themselves to things their characters would care about. And that's [I]really[/I] going to help them roleplay. Now if you want to instead go for an effects-based spontaneous magic system rather than one with predetermined hard-coded spells, a lot of the objections weaken or even evaporate. But D&D is not such a system. Which is why a lot of us have been suggesting that other systems that would suit the idea better. Of course. And this is where the idea is revealed to be an absolutely stupid one. The characters should know what they are able to do and [I]roughly[/I] how effective it is. The devil, as always, is in the details. By stripping the character sheet from the character, you have ensured that they do not know what they can do or what powers they have. The only way to explain this in such a detailed system is giving the PCs amnesia. Which means that the DM is pitching a game in which all the players are playing characters with brain damage. (If I had to play in such a game I'd either submit a punch drunk fighter, a wizard who'd done too much Vancian casting, or a Cleric who'd had his mind blown through a Commune spell.) If the system is relatively light with effects based magic, the brain damage issue goes away - the very specific nature of the D&D rules is the problem here. But at that point you have all the advantages of the DM being the one keeping the character sheet without the DM needing to put the extra work in. But knowing whether you heal through spellcasting or Lay On Hands or even through music should be screamingly obvious. Armour, weapons, feats, spells, class features. All obvious with a very few exceptions (Toughness being the obvious one). The only thing that is defensible unless the party is a theme party with amnesia is for the DM to keep the exact numbers secret. At which point, why bother? And if the DM accidently wrote "Wizard" on the character sheet when the character concept was cloistered cleric of Bocobob or Ioun? The player can roleplay a desire for turning - but can go whistle. This is why D&D is the wrong game to try this sort of nonsense in. There is a [I]significant[/I] difference between a Paladin, a Fighter, and a Fighter/Cleric. And IC the character ought to know his magical capabilities (unless he's taken too many knocks to the head). Remember Clerics in D&D (pre-4e) wear heavy armour and fight in the front lines. An honest pitch for this game would seem to be "I don't like the way you focus on your character sheets. Therefore want to give all your characters brain damage so they stop remembering what they are good at." A better approach would be a different game with shorter character sheets, of which many have been named. [/QUOTE]

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