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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 7031479" data-attributes="member: 20323">How many PCs, of what levels, and what class/subclasses/roles? And do you use feats & magic items?Do the dragons have ample room to fly around?Are there any minions or you asking about just the dragons solo?Will the PCs be fresh or already wounded/resource depleted?Need more information to even begin to answer. When it comes to lair actions, my rule-of-thumb is that lair actions may increase the monster's CR by +1, provided there are "significant" boosts to offense or defense. However, to know for certain, you need to calculate the monster's CR from scratch (and remember CR is just a loose guideline), and you may sometimes find that the Monster Manual's math is off compared to the DMG since the MM was produced before the DMG guidelines were finalized.For example, a red dragon's lair actions include magma eruption (21 damage, DC 15 save). What influence does that have on its CR?Well... here's the DMG calculations on the Young Red Dragon...Defensive CRhp 178, effective AC 20 (18 + 2 saves) => defensive CR 10Offensive CRRound 1: Breath Weapon, save DC 17 (56 * 3 targets = 168) Round 2: Bite, Claw, Claw, attack +10 (20 + 13 +13 = 46)Round 3: Bite, Claw, Claw, attack +10 (20 + 13 +13 = 46)(168 + 46 + 46) / 3 = 86.7 => offensive CR 13Total CR(10 + 13) / 2 = CR 11.5So, to begin with, the young red dragon's CR in the MM is lower than what the DMG would give you. Which just goes to show how rough the whole CR system is and isn't intended to be a precise tool.Now, normally when we say "would such-and-such make a good challenge" or "at what level could PCs could fight and survive this monster", what we're saying is "I want to make this fight HARD, a rewarding challenging, but not unbeatable." So, that's when you calculate your party's HARD threshold using the DMG.So assuming the Young Red Dragon's actual CR (no lair actions) is about 11, and you have a party of four PCs... At 8th or 9th level they would be having what the DMG describes as a HARD encounter.But that's only the broad strokes. Really, it comes down to knowing your players and their PCs, as well as how you play monsters as a DM.</blockquote>

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