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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Janx" data-source="post: 4509216" data-attributes="member: 8835">So I'm getting RC's point.  The last die roll that kills you is = a Save or Die roll.Imagine a fight against the BBEG, he zaps you each round with a spell of increasing level and damage, until he gets to his Save or Die Death spell.  That's the same as if he hacked you to bits with an axe over 9 rounds, until you died.I think I see the viewpoint difference.  The "real" Save or Die scenario is where you start the round relatively healthy, and right away a single die roll makes you dead.  And the cause of the die roll stands out blatantly from any of the other dangers in the scene (had the bad guy swung blades at you, the fight would have lasted longer).  The result is the player doesn't feel like there was anything they could do.It could have been a rigged ceiling that collapses when somebody opens the door on the opposite side of the room, releasing the 50 ton ceiling block on top of the entire party, killing them all if the rogue fails his single detect traps roll (which he can only do from inside the room, and the party likely thinks is safe so is in there with him while he works on the next door).This is the same gripe players have when out of the blue, their low level party is confronted by a high CR dragon who wants to eat them, and quickly does.Both scenes leave the players feeling mad.  The problem really is, the DM built a scene to kill PCs, not challeng them.  Short of staying in the village, the players don't feel there's much they could do.  With div. spells, the DM may obfuscate the answer so they don't know about the danger (or have multiple versions, so they only learn about 1).HEck, in the trap example, if the party casts and asks "is the door trapped".  Answer yes.  Party leaves room, theif picks lock and fails and trap goes off squishing thief.  Had the trap been a poison dart or something, he'd have gotten a saving throw.  The 50 ton block has long been the "no saving throw" reality wins example that you can't reflex save your way across a room to get out of the other door .The 50 ton block was specifically listed in 2E as cause of immediate death in the DMG.  In fact you could use it in an illusion, and if they failed their save, would die (assuming you had it in a believable way, like in a dungeon, after a trap trigger went off).However, the state of the art in DMing has shifted such that these kind of traps are considered bad GMing.  The Save or Die spell is now facing the same opinion by many players, by applying similar logic.I don't know how other people play.  At my house we play it this way:death happens, as RAWencounters range from easy to really hardevery encounter should be beatable (though it may take some luck and brains)death happens infrequently (unless the players are plain stupid)the GM may ease up if players play well, roll badly by not doing as much damage, skipping or shrinking future encounters, providing supplies to heal upraise deads are also rare, thus dying is likely end of characterin a good session, the players should feel like the odds are stacked against them, that they're losing the big fight, only to turn it around with clever plan and save the day.I don't have action points or death cards or whatever.  We just play the dang game, and as GM, I try to keep them on their toes, and sometimes I give them a break if things are going too badly for them.</blockquote>

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