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<blockquote data-quote="Mustrum_Ridcully" data-source="post: 4510367" data-attributes="member: 710">Quite possible that 3E made things worse, but if you mention divination spells to discover threats - these seem even harder to get or use in earlier editions then 3E, so I don't see how these can turn out to be a default solution.Under the premise that the rules or guidelines make it very clear that pure &quot;Save or Die&quot; situation without the DM providing opportunities for the players to become aware of the danger and prepare themselves against it, I would also allow Save or Die spells. But I am also fine with it removed from RAW and entirely be a DM decision to rule a certain scenario with a &quot;Save or Die&quot; effect after he has provided enough warning. Keep of the Shadowfell even includes a &quot;Die&quot; effect in the final encounter. But it is very unlikely to be triggered accidentally, unlike a cavalry charge by Bodaks or a Medusa imprisoned in a dungeon room.I don't think I recall, especially because I don't know if you argue that the 4E design team didn't notice the problematic changes between AD&amp;D and 3E, or if they saw the same problems.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mustrum_Ridcully, post: 4510367, member: 710"] Quite possible that 3E made things worse, but if you mention divination spells to discover threats - these seem even harder to get or use in earlier editions then 3E, so I don't see how these can turn out to be a default solution. Under the premise that the rules or guidelines make it very clear that pure "Save or Die" situation without the DM providing opportunities for the players to become aware of the danger and prepare themselves against it, I would also allow Save or Die spells. But I am also fine with it removed from RAW and entirely be a DM decision to rule a certain scenario with a "Save or Die" effect after he has provided enough warning. Keep of the Shadowfell even includes a "Die" effect in the final encounter. But it is very unlikely to be triggered accidentally, unlike a cavalry charge by Bodaks or a Medusa imprisoned in a dungeon room. I don't think I recall, especially because I don't know if you argue that the 4E design team didn't notice the problematic changes between AD&D and 3E, or if they saw the same problems. [/QUOTE]

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