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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mustrum_Ridcully" data-source="post: 4511618" data-attributes="member: 710">The key is to have these counter-measures in place, and make the Save or Die effect irrelevant. Therefore, the Save aspect is strictly seen unnecessary and just a boon for those that weren't smart enough to figure the counter-measure out. But it has an unfortunate side effect: It might create the belief that the Save is all that you need to care about, both as the DM and the player. And that is something that seemed to have happened in 3E. Save or Die effects can easily happen - enemy spellcasters have enough spell slots and spells known that they could always carry a save or die spell around. The attempted "counter" is that you can greatly affect your saving throw chance. Unfortunately, this just makes the experience of simply rolling low a lot more bitter - there is nothing you could have reasonably done to prepare yourself against the enemy with SoD and all comes down to luck. Unless you want to cast a divination spell for every encounter and rest after each encounter (or at least once all divinations and counter-spells are cast)If we go back before 3E, the situation might have been better. The "encounter" focus of the game wasn't there yet, and probably few would have used Save or Die effects without the warning signs that at least a clever player should be able to figure out. But there, Saves aren't really needed, because smart play doesn't want you to a save at all - you already failed at that point, and the death or survival of your PC is basically a formality. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />So, after this thread, I would say the problem is not as simple as "how many rolls till I die or survive?", but it is about the decisions that lead you to your death. And it also matters about how we set the context for a decision making process.At least since 3E, the decision making process is mostly seen per encounter, not per session. So any talk about ample warning should let you avoid the effects are fine and dandy, but don't work in the encounter-context. The warning would have to come in the encounter, not later.I wouldn't worry too much about this. I think it has less to do with "hyper-experts" or experience at all, but just different play styles. Some people might even enjoy both - but a system can affect which play style work better (and I dare say). Also note - if you wanted a (Save or) Die effect in a 4E game, you could do that. Again, it requires the necessary communication, but if you wanted, you could create a scenario in where the PCs can learn that if they are not prepared, they will just die. Part of the communication that still follows the 4E spirit might be that you tell them when they are not adequately prepared. If they ignore your warning them - well, let's just say this is a nice chance to try a different character concept then. Maybe a non-suicidal one this time? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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