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<blockquote data-quote="IceFractal" data-source="post: 4091810" data-attributes="member: 27704"><p>One thing I've noticed in 4E so far - there are precious few ways to nonviolently subdue someone, no matter how much lower level they are. The innkeeper gets possessed and attacks you? Guess you're going to have to kill him, or else run away.</p><p></p><p></p><p>What I'm talking about specifically:</p><p>1) Trip is now a per-encounter power for only specific classes. Disarm may be as well, and is certainly not a general option. You could easily have a party with no access to these.</p><p></p><p>2) Grapple only stops someone from moving, not from attacking. Pinning, if it even exists, is presumably a martial class power. So no matter if you're Hercules wrestling a goblin, you can't pin it.</p><p></p><p>3) Spells all seem to do damage along with their effects - even spells like Sleep! It's to the extent where I bet a Charm Person spell, if it existed, would do something like: "2d10+4 damage, and target is charmed, save ends."</p><p></p><p>4) Which brings me to another point: spells have very short durations. Even the world's greatest archmage only has at most a 43% chance to put someone to sleep, and any charm, mind-control, or petrifying spells probably last only until save ends (so 1-2 rounds, maybe 3). </p><p></p><p>5) In general, the design attitude seems to be "anything except whittling through the opponent's full HP is unfun", and any abilties that can bypass this are avoided.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Now against equal or higher level foes, I can understand this. It's pretty anti-climactic if the Pit Fiend gets unlucky in round 2, gets petrified, and now the battle is over. Or if the Mummy King keeps getting tripped and can't reach anyone. </p><p></p><p>But against significantly lower-level foes, or at great risk when you have no choice, it should be possible to incapacitate someone without killing them. This could be easily accomplished by simply having options like Trip and Disarm be present for all (but risky and not usually effective without a power), and by having some spells that flat-out immobilize foes who are weak enough. </p><p></p><p>But no, apparently 4E combat is always in normal circumstances against evenly-matched foes who don't want anything to interrupt their thrilling grinding away at each-other's HP.</p><p></p><p></p><p>And now the point of nonlethal damage - I don't think it's a good solution. First off, there's no reason to assume spells can even <em>do</em> nonlethal damage - they couldn't in previous editions, and nothing has been said to the contrary. Secondly, nonlethal damage is not really a nonviolent solution. If the mayor is possessed and your solution is to beat the crap out of him, expect the city guard to have a problem with that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="IceFractal, post: 4091810, member: 27704"] One thing I've noticed in 4E so far - there are precious few ways to nonviolently subdue someone, no matter how much lower level they are. The innkeeper gets possessed and attacks you? Guess you're going to have to kill him, or else run away. What I'm talking about specifically: 1) Trip is now a per-encounter power for only specific classes. Disarm may be as well, and is certainly not a general option. You could easily have a party with no access to these. 2) Grapple only stops someone from moving, not from attacking. Pinning, if it even exists, is presumably a martial class power. So no matter if you're Hercules wrestling a goblin, you can't pin it. 3) Spells all seem to do damage along with their effects - even spells like Sleep! It's to the extent where I bet a Charm Person spell, if it existed, would do something like: "2d10+4 damage, and target is charmed, save ends." 4) Which brings me to another point: spells have very short durations. Even the world's greatest archmage only has at most a 43% chance to put someone to sleep, and any charm, mind-control, or petrifying spells probably last only until save ends (so 1-2 rounds, maybe 3). 5) In general, the design attitude seems to be "anything except whittling through the opponent's full HP is unfun", and any abilties that can bypass this are avoided. Now against equal or higher level foes, I can understand this. It's pretty anti-climactic if the Pit Fiend gets unlucky in round 2, gets petrified, and now the battle is over. Or if the Mummy King keeps getting tripped and can't reach anyone. But against significantly lower-level foes, or at great risk when you have no choice, it should be possible to incapacitate someone without killing them. This could be easily accomplished by simply having options like Trip and Disarm be present for all (but risky and not usually effective without a power), and by having some spells that flat-out immobilize foes who are weak enough. But no, apparently 4E combat is always in normal circumstances against evenly-matched foes who don't want anything to interrupt their thrilling grinding away at each-other's HP. And now the point of nonlethal damage - I don't think it's a good solution. First off, there's no reason to assume spells can even [I]do[/I] nonlethal damage - they couldn't in previous editions, and nothing has been said to the contrary. Secondly, nonlethal damage is not really a nonviolent solution. If the mayor is possessed and your solution is to beat the crap out of him, expect the city guard to have a problem with that. [/QUOTE]
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