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<blockquote data-quote="Fenris-77" data-source="post: 7927852" data-attributes="member: 6993955">I went into some detail about the various levels you can apply 'learned' at. My point was that the characters aren't learning class abilities - those are abstract functions of the rules. They are learning a host of in-game skills that those abilities are supposed to represent though. In the second case, the abstraction shows through because not every specific instance of a class actually uses or practices those skills in-game, but gets the ability anyway.Rangers practice running and hiding, and they don't get cunning action. Why? Because the abilities are abstractions and the Ranger class has different abstracted abilities. It's not about the character practicing running and hiding though, it can't be, or at least it's not just about that.This feels like a bit of a reach to me. The argument has already fallen apart when it comes to basic stuff like disengage and cunning action. It only comes back together when take the level of abstraction into account. A very similar level of abstraction is why there are so many arguments about skills and stats. The connection between stealth and dexterity only, for example, isn't a product of the game world, it's a product of the rules. Interestingly, the abstraction I'm talking about is clearly indexed in the part of your post above. Maybe we aren't as far apart on this as it seems.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Fenris-77, post: 7927852, member: 6993955"] I went into some detail about the various levels you can apply 'learned' at. My point was that the characters aren't learning class abilities - those are abstract functions of the rules. They are learning a host of in-game skills that those abilities are supposed to represent though. In the second case, the abstraction shows through because not every specific instance of a class actually uses or practices those skills in-game, but gets the ability anyway. Rangers practice running and hiding, and they don't get cunning action. Why? Because the abilities are abstractions and the Ranger class has different abstracted abilities. It's not about the character practicing running and hiding though, it can't be, or at least it's not just about that. This feels like a bit of a reach to me. The argument has already fallen apart when it comes to basic stuff like disengage and cunning action. It only comes back together when take the level of abstraction into account. A very similar level of abstraction is why there are so many arguments about skills and stats. The connection between stealth and dexterity only, for example, isn't a product of the game world, it's a product of the rules. Interestingly, the abstraction I'm talking about is clearly indexed in the part of your post above. Maybe we aren't as far apart on this as it seems. [/QUOTE]

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