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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6109460" data-attributes="member: 4937">Ok, not seeing the problem there.&nbsp; Then why do it?&nbsp; Why allow for example players to buy items?I'm not having that problem.&nbsp; You are at 7th level.&nbsp; I don't understand how optimization is necessary to challenge 7th level characters.&nbsp; I don't understand how magical items are necessary to challenge 7th level characters.Ok, so what do you want to include in your 'fantasy spy mission'?&nbsp;&nbsp; Presumably, fantasy spies, right?&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm guessing that you are trying to challenge the party with things like 4th level rogues or 6th level rogues, and you really aren't getting that without elite stat arrays, and lots of stupid magic gear (that is just going to fall into the hands of the PCs anyway) that you are talking about CR 2 to CR 3 sort of challenges because 3e has typically vastly overestimated the CR of humanoid NPCs and of support class NPCs in particular.&nbsp;&nbsp; I mean, basically speaking, you've got a party of 5 James Bonds, and I'm betting you are trying to counter them with the sort of things 1 James Bond overcomes in spy movies.&nbsp; If you wanted versimilitude to spy movies, you probably shouldn't play with an ensemble cast of 5 characters, because what&nbsp; you have now isn't 'spies' but an elite commando team.&nbsp;&nbsp; If you want versimilitude to 'Die Hard', keep in mind you have 5 characters that are already above John McClanes level.&nbsp; Twenty terrorists isn't a challenge.&nbsp; You need 100 of them just according to 'Hollywood Physics'.&nbsp;&nbsp; Moreover, those terrorists ARE kitted up like a Christmas tree with 'magic items' - high tech gizmos and weapons - and even then the only way to even up the odds against John McClane was to arrange that not only was he basically unarmed, he didn't even have any shoes.But ok, you want to challenge a 7th level party with basic unelite rogues, you are going to need to treat a non-elite rogue of nth level as its real CR.&nbsp; That means something like 5 8th level rogues without any other special advantages.&nbsp;&nbsp; That will be about 5 CR 5 enemies.&nbsp; Or you can just tailor the stat block to what you need without worrying about the underlying math.&nbsp; You'll need something like melee +10, 3d6 damage, AC around 20, 38 hit points, all saves at +5, special quality evasion.&nbsp;&nbsp; Ok, there's a stat block, don't worry about class or level.&nbsp; Good enough to go with.&nbsp; Have your battle.&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm not seeing the problem.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6109460, member: 4937"] Ok, not seeing the problem there. Then why do it? Why allow for example players to buy items? I'm not having that problem. You are at 7th level. I don't understand how optimization is necessary to challenge 7th level characters. I don't understand how magical items are necessary to challenge 7th level characters. Ok, so what do you want to include in your 'fantasy spy mission'? Presumably, fantasy spies, right? I'm guessing that you are trying to challenge the party with things like 4th level rogues or 6th level rogues, and you really aren't getting that without elite stat arrays, and lots of stupid magic gear (that is just going to fall into the hands of the PCs anyway) that you are talking about CR 2 to CR 3 sort of challenges because 3e has typically vastly overestimated the CR of humanoid NPCs and of support class NPCs in particular. I mean, basically speaking, you've got a party of 5 James Bonds, and I'm betting you are trying to counter them with the sort of things 1 James Bond overcomes in spy movies. If you wanted versimilitude to spy movies, you probably shouldn't play with an ensemble cast of 5 characters, because what you have now isn't 'spies' but an elite commando team. If you want versimilitude to 'Die Hard', keep in mind you have 5 characters that are already above John McClanes level. Twenty terrorists isn't a challenge. You need 100 of them just according to 'Hollywood Physics'. Moreover, those terrorists ARE kitted up like a Christmas tree with 'magic items' - high tech gizmos and weapons - and even then the only way to even up the odds against John McClane was to arrange that not only was he basically unarmed, he didn't even have any shoes. But ok, you want to challenge a 7th level party with basic unelite rogues, you are going to need to treat a non-elite rogue of nth level as its real CR. That means something like 5 8th level rogues without any other special advantages. That will be about 5 CR 5 enemies. Or you can just tailor the stat block to what you need without worrying about the underlying math. You'll need something like melee +10, 3d6 damage, AC around 20, 38 hit points, all saves at +5, special quality evasion. Ok, there's a stat block, don't worry about class or level. Good enough to go with. Have your battle. I'm not seeing the problem. [/QUOTE]

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