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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Psion" data-source="post: 2433201" data-attributes="member: 172">Come now. A dragon long ago demonstrated that Gandalf was a 5th level magic user. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />If there are only a dozen mages in the world, a 6th level mage is something to be impressed by. But in my game, it's not that way.3e is the game we are talking about here. You seem to be speaking of some variant of 3e that I don't play. In 3e, teleport is a 5th level spell, something you need to be a 9th level character to cast.That's nice... but it wouldn't be a vrock to me. It would be "s'mon's vrock" or a "mock vrock" <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> . And it would be about as tough as an ogre. And would be fighting the same characters as I would have fighting ogres. For me, demons and liches are what you fight once you have graduated from ogres.Again, not saying your power schema might not work for you, but it's just not my power schema. I have the same argument on the other end with people who feel that figures from myth and folklore (and since you bring up Gandalf, literature) need to be 25th+ level. To me, 3e defines what characters can do at certain levels, and my expectation of the power of liches and King Arthur and Gandalf are not on that scale.</blockquote>

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