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<blockquote data-quote="Emberashh" data-source="post: 9209413" data-attributes="member: 7040941"><p>Hmm see thats a big difference there, but there again we're probably working with different baselines for characters. My characters when they're at "0" in any of the 9 Talents (Attributes combined with Skill Mods) are assumed to be somewhat above average compared to a real person. </p><p></p><p>Anything you'd intuitively know a human can do, so can your character (with some margin of error until your Skilled), and as such for every skill even without any experience you'll be able to Improvise an Action to take with it, with which you could also directly try for any codified ability in the game. (While conventional levels aren't really used, every ability will have a Level that not only defines a "default" progression path, but also gives you a DC to hit to use it without taking it)</p><p></p><p>Improvise Action is actually pretty integral; its going to be the only Action thats directly printed onto generic character sheets (i plan on having generic ones for builders, but also bespoke ones for those that just want to solo-class), and I plan on it being, perhaps over repetitively, reprinted into every single Skill's progression tree. </p><p></p><p>Basically, I'm taking a nuclear hammer to the issue of people being overreliant on codified abilities. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah I feel this tends to be just as much an issue of gameworld design as it is character or difficulty. </p><p></p><p>For one, while we don't necessarily need realism, we do need a lot of space for a series of escalating challenges to reasonably coexist in, especially over a long period of time. Too small a gameworld, and you're kind of obligated to do difficulty scaling. </p><p></p><p>For two, in sandboxes I've found its better to make it as "fixed" a world as possible. Ie, when you establish that a dungeon exists, all of its challenges already do and sit at whatever DC they're set to, whether the players engage with it in the first session or the hundreth, after they can do the dungeon in their sleep. </p><p></p><p>That doesn't mean challenges can't change, but I think its better if theres a clear and intuitive in-world reason for it. Robbing the King getting harder after the party (or some other group) failing and getting caught makes sense. </p><p></p><p>Goblintown becoming harder to successfully assault after you've slaughtered the other 4 Goblintowns makes sense. </p><p></p><p>Goblintown getting harder because you're playing at some high level instead of earlier really doesn't make much sense. </p><p></p><p>So if one combines a suitably sized gameworld (relative to what the PCs can do) with the idea of committing to fixed, pre-established challenges, then you can avoid much of the treadmill issue. The worlds my game would need to be played in would actually be rather gigantic compared to the norm, and not always jam packed. Lots of space to do the things players can do. </p><p></p><p>It does introduce a pacing issue, though, and thats where calibrating is, at least imo, easier and more fun. Introducing new hooks and such is a lot more fun for guiding and responding to progression. </p><p></p><p>And thats assuming you don't have other parts of the system to help out. Thats part of what I'm looking to solve with my Exploration and Discovery system. Due to how the Oracles work, it'll be easy for WKs (World Keepers) to introduce appropriate (or wildly inappropriate) challenges to the adventure, and players will still maintain their own agency in pursuing those new side adventures. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I haven't put it into practice as of yet, but my idea is that you fill a generic pool, but you also check off what Skills you used. If you spend the SPs on Class levels or Racial/Profession perks, you can just spend them freely. But if you want to increase Skills or take a Skill perk, then they have to go into the ones you used. </p><p></p><p>Its tempting to just have it be freely spendable, but I'm not sold on it yet. Especially becauss then it becomes cheesesable. </p><p></p><p>But thats also why I'm considering having every Skill have its own pool, rather than a generic one, which would be cleaner, but would also mean progression can accelerate pretty fast depending on the session.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Emberashh, post: 9209413, member: 7040941"] Hmm see thats a big difference there, but there again we're probably working with different baselines for characters. My characters when they're at "0" in any of the 9 Talents (Attributes combined with Skill Mods) are assumed to be somewhat above average compared to a real person. Anything you'd intuitively know a human can do, so can your character (with some margin of error until your Skilled), and as such for every skill even without any experience you'll be able to Improvise an Action to take with it, with which you could also directly try for any codified ability in the game. (While conventional levels aren't really used, every ability will have a Level that not only defines a "default" progression path, but also gives you a DC to hit to use it without taking it) Improvise Action is actually pretty integral; its going to be the only Action thats directly printed onto generic character sheets (i plan on having generic ones for builders, but also bespoke ones for those that just want to solo-class), and I plan on it being, perhaps over repetitively, reprinted into every single Skill's progression tree. Basically, I'm taking a nuclear hammer to the issue of people being overreliant on codified abilities. Yeah I feel this tends to be just as much an issue of gameworld design as it is character or difficulty. For one, while we don't necessarily need realism, we do need a lot of space for a series of escalating challenges to reasonably coexist in, especially over a long period of time. Too small a gameworld, and you're kind of obligated to do difficulty scaling. For two, in sandboxes I've found its better to make it as "fixed" a world as possible. Ie, when you establish that a dungeon exists, all of its challenges already do and sit at whatever DC they're set to, whether the players engage with it in the first session or the hundreth, after they can do the dungeon in their sleep. That doesn't mean challenges can't change, but I think its better if theres a clear and intuitive in-world reason for it. Robbing the King getting harder after the party (or some other group) failing and getting caught makes sense. Goblintown becoming harder to successfully assault after you've slaughtered the other 4 Goblintowns makes sense. Goblintown getting harder because you're playing at some high level instead of earlier really doesn't make much sense. So if one combines a suitably sized gameworld (relative to what the PCs can do) with the idea of committing to fixed, pre-established challenges, then you can avoid much of the treadmill issue. The worlds my game would need to be played in would actually be rather gigantic compared to the norm, and not always jam packed. Lots of space to do the things players can do. It does introduce a pacing issue, though, and thats where calibrating is, at least imo, easier and more fun. Introducing new hooks and such is a lot more fun for guiding and responding to progression. And thats assuming you don't have other parts of the system to help out. Thats part of what I'm looking to solve with my Exploration and Discovery system. Due to how the Oracles work, it'll be easy for WKs (World Keepers) to introduce appropriate (or wildly inappropriate) challenges to the adventure, and players will still maintain their own agency in pursuing those new side adventures. I haven't put it into practice as of yet, but my idea is that you fill a generic pool, but you also check off what Skills you used. If you spend the SPs on Class levels or Racial/Profession perks, you can just spend them freely. But if you want to increase Skills or take a Skill perk, then they have to go into the ones you used. Its tempting to just have it be freely spendable, but I'm not sold on it yet. Especially becauss then it becomes cheesesable. But thats also why I'm considering having every Skill have its own pool, rather than a generic one, which would be cleaner, but would also mean progression can accelerate pretty fast depending on the session. [/QUOTE]
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