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Message: <blockquote data-quote="billd91" data-source="post: 4672013" data-attributes="member: 3400">I disagree that it's a direct result. I've heard a lot of complaints (including in the PF playtest boards and run-up to 4e) about loss of fun issues that sound very similar and not all of them focus on losing gear. In fact, more of them focus on being taken out by some un-fun save-or-sit effect that keeps them from participating in the session. So, while players may covet and depend on gear, there's something much broader at work that isn't just an issue of magic equipment.What I'm seeing about the un-fun thing is that incorporates just about everything, whether it's facing a temporary loss of actions or loss of effectiveness until lost gear is built back up. There's is this level of passive competitiveness between players. "If I'm not having the same amount of fun as that player <points> right now, all the time, then there's something wrong with the game." Inherent in that is the assumption that there's something wrong with the game and not the player's expectations...Now, this may be old cantankerous feelings on my part as I see the behavior of players change over time (cue: the "back in my day" story). But I really do see it as an issue. There seems to be a significant portion of the gaming community that does not look at the long term of the character's development and play other than the build. The idea that some PCs shine in certain situations and you might wait from time to time to have your own spotlight moment seems to be increasingly anathema. Laying the un-fun issue at the feet of magic item dependence doesn't come anywhere close to the root of the issue. If anything, it's just a symptom of a much broader issue that I'm not at all sure applies in this case.Players simply love their gear. They love to get better gear. They love to build up a PC's capabilities with gear. They'll fight to keep a run-of-the-mill +3 sword like it was Anduril itself and they were Aragorn. They seem to love their gear almost as much (sometimes more) than their characters. As much as I disagree with the analysis of the post, Dragonblade may have a point. In earlier editions, things were different or at least seemed it. But I disagree that 3e's mechanics lived in a limbo between paradigms and didn't work. In 1e, when characters were expected to be rolled up, had fewer variables to select, your expectations were different. Life was tougher and if you got a lucky break, you were grateful for it. With point buy, tons of choices, and player empowerment all over the place, if you get an unlucky break, you see bitter complaint. I think it mirrors the kind of things you see in historical/political studies. The most resentment when the worm turns comes from the people with the highest expectations before they were dashed. This may mean that RPGs, as they have developed from the first generation, may be their own worst enemies when it comes to sowing discord and disgruntlement.</blockquote>

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