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<blockquote data-quote="ProfessorCirno" data-source="post: 4673728" data-attributes="member: 65637"><p>You're blatently ignoring my point.</p><p></p><p>The problem isn't that you defeated the PCs. The problem is that you humiliated them and then tried to take away everything that they saw as "theirs." I understand that everything you did corrosponded with the NPC. What you're missing is, the PCs probably don't give two craps about that. They don't care that the NPC is just acting as it should. What they see is:</p><p></p><p>1) Enemy!</p><p>2) Oh god we can't even touch it, even with the city coming out and helping us!</p><p>3) Wait, what? Did you just treat me like a child?</p><p>4) Screw this. If I'm going down, I'm going down as a hero, not some four year old told to go to his room.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You are, again, completely and purposefully ignoring my point. It has nothing to do with the PCs losing, and everything to do with the dragon sticking out it's fingers and tongue and going "Neener neener neener! I won, you lost, I won, you lost, you ca~an't beat me~" And then you, the DM, going "He's right, you know. You can't beat him."</p><p></p><p>You can defeat the party without <em>insulting</em> them.</p><p></p><p>Do you know why people hate DMPCs? Not because they exist outside of the rules, and not because they're annoying - lots of things exist outside of the rules, and are annoying. The hate for DMPCs is that <em>they take the game away from the players</em>. What you had your dragon do was essentially take the game away from the players. It's not that you presented them with a "you must lose" fight, it's that you presented them with a "You must lose, <em>and I'm giving no signs that you'll ever be able to win or get your stuff back</em>" fight. In the previous example of a player being captured by gnolls, they knew that the party was nearby, ready to come save them. You didn't give them that. You - and if it seems I'm hammering this hard, it's because <strong>I am</strong> - said "You lose, no matter what. Now give the dragon your items and go run away like a bunch of children. Feel bad. Hang your head."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ProfessorCirno, post: 4673728, member: 65637"] You're blatently ignoring my point. The problem isn't that you defeated the PCs. The problem is that you humiliated them and then tried to take away everything that they saw as "theirs." I understand that everything you did corrosponded with the NPC. What you're missing is, the PCs probably don't give two craps about that. They don't care that the NPC is just acting as it should. What they see is: 1) Enemy! 2) Oh god we can't even touch it, even with the city coming out and helping us! 3) Wait, what? Did you just treat me like a child? 4) Screw this. If I'm going down, I'm going down as a hero, not some four year old told to go to his room. Yes No Yes You are, again, completely and purposefully ignoring my point. It has nothing to do with the PCs losing, and everything to do with the dragon sticking out it's fingers and tongue and going "Neener neener neener! I won, you lost, I won, you lost, you ca~an't beat me~" And then you, the DM, going "He's right, you know. You can't beat him." You can defeat the party without [I]insulting[/I] them. Do you know why people hate DMPCs? Not because they exist outside of the rules, and not because they're annoying - lots of things exist outside of the rules, and are annoying. The hate for DMPCs is that [I]they take the game away from the players[/I]. What you had your dragon do was essentially take the game away from the players. It's not that you presented them with a "you must lose" fight, it's that you presented them with a "You must lose, [I]and I'm giving no signs that you'll ever be able to win or get your stuff back[/I]" fight. In the previous example of a player being captured by gnolls, they knew that the party was nearby, ready to come save them. You didn't give them that. You - and if it seems I'm hammering this hard, it's because [B]I am[/B] - said "You lose, no matter what. Now give the dragon your items and go run away like a bunch of children. Feel bad. Hang your head." [/QUOTE]
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