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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8161204" data-attributes="member: 6801228">I completely agree with this, which is why I feel a system like this has to be an opt in choice. I've seen a lot of times when a table starts stalling because there is a result they want, but they can't figure out how to get there. Pull out a system and say "okay, this is for all the marbles. If you lose, we can decide why you lost, but the scene ends and you don't get what you wanted." I'd rarely go with them being convinced of the other side, but maybe a player will say that is exactly what happens. I think it is fair to give the lose status to them, let them figure out how they lost, but they have to agree that they can lose before the system starts getting implemented. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yeah, this is another aspect of it. Maybe you try and argue down the King, but in the process you see that the nobles are losing their respect for you with your carrying on, so you back down. This is why I think it is important to have the player decide what failure means to them. A Barbarian isn't going to care about the losing the noble's respect, but they might realize they have gotten so angry they are about to start killing, so they storm off and head to the training yard to break things. They both still lost the scene, but they did so in ways that make sense for the character. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I actually had someone do this to me on my very first 3.5 game. I don't remember the session (it never went beyond character creation and a 1 hour session) but I can never forget them rolling the die, and telling me that my character was now pants-wettingly terrified of them. Which they weren't.</blockquote>

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