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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9590291" data-attributes="member: 7030563">Primary caster is better than just caster, if that is what you are talking about.  But while that logic might work for 17th level characters, 1st level Rangers and Paladins have 1st level spells just like the full casters.On top of that, 1st level Rangers can actually cast more spells per day than any other class* and 1st level Paladins can cast the same number as Bards, Sorcerers, Clerics and Druids.  If you assume PCs are using all their spell slots, Rangers in tier 1 are keeping up with full casters pretty well and in some cases will still be casting after those guys have run out of slots.*Technically a 1st level Warlock who gets 3 short rests can cast the same number as a Ranger.Really my point is this - if you are comparing spell casting classes to non spell casting classes you should compare classes that cast spells to classes that don't cast spells.  A ton of both the Ranger and Paladin capability come from their spells.  Calling them "martials" and excluding them when trying to demonstrate how relatively strong or weak "casters" are is a bit disingenuous IMO.  In terms of abilities, capability and general play style, a Paladin is a heck of a lot closer to a Valor Bard or Bladelock than they are to a Rogue or Monk.</blockquote>