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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 9590355" data-attributes="member: 6750235">Why?  All level 5 fighters have a subclass because subclass abilities are in the 3rd level fighter class progression like other classes.I underlined an important part.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />The reason people play fighters is because they want to play a fighter, and the class is effective at fighting.Cantrips are similar but different from weapon masteries because cantrips use the magic action and weapon masteries occur on the attack.  This allows the fighter at that level to use weapon masteries 2 or 3 times on their turn as well as on another turn via reactions that might take place.Most weapon masteries also have no saving throw, unlike most cantrips, buy they do still need to hit usually.  So for something comparable like the Sap weapon mastery on a typical weapon like a longsword, mace, or morning star going with a shield style the fighter has 2 attacks and that means 2 chances to apply the effect to 1 target or 1 chance each to 2 targets where something like Vicious Mockery is all or nothing on a single target based on the DC 14 or 15 saving throw at that level.The damage from the cantrip is far less than the longsword and landing the same effect is less reliable, and even landing damage in the first place is less reliable. "Torchless light" is just Darkvision and anyone can run a species with it or use a hooded lantern.  Or take a martial class and subclass that does grant the ability.I think a battle master disarming an opponent from a distance with a maneuver and pushing them away from their dropped weapon in the same attack with a heavy crossbow, running up and grabbing that weapon with their movement, and then attacking that target with their own weapon that they just picked up with their second attack is way more impressive than just grabbing an object from a distance.The 5th level fighter could be a psychic warrior instead though.5th level fighters can strike multiple foes on the attack action.5th level fighters can do this with weapon masteries.  Battle masters can add to it with combat maneuvers.Slow, topple, and vex weapon masteries.  Goading attack, menacing attack, tripping attack... combat maneuvers.Bait and Switch, Commander's Strike, Maneuvering Attack, Rally...Defense fighting style, Interception fighting style, Protection fighting style for themself or others in those options.Tactical mind helps with skill checks.  The battle master gains a free skill and a free artisan proficiency that can be used to brew potions during downtime with alchemist's supplies.  And...Ambush, Commanding Presence, Tactical AssessmentWizards definitely have options here, but let's not ignore the options fighters have....If we contrive a scenario that favors a wizard of course it's going to favor the wizard.Fly doesn't do much.  Acquiring a flying mount does the same thing without using up concentration, and anyone can use stealth and a spyglass.Polymorph is a bit better but tanks the PC's INT and CHA in the process.Sneaking up and spying isn't challenging for martial characters.  They can also use a disguise kit and walk through enemy encampments gathering information.Using spells to do things with magic that mundane characters can already do isn't much of an argument.  ;-)That the townsfolk don't know how to use?  Fighters can train people to be fighters and possibly make their own weapons.  From the description:"...You can fabricate a Large or smaller object... If you’re working with metal, stone, or another mineral substance, however, the fabricated object can be no larger than Medium... You also can’t use it to create items that require a high degree of skill—such as weapons and armor—unless you have proficiency with the type of Artisan’s Tools used to craft such objects."Each casting of fabricate makes 1 item that the wizard needs to have the skills to make.  That's a handful of objects per day at best using additional higher level slots.  Assuming that wizard is actually capable of crafting those items because the base class doesn't offer that ability.  A background or feat might, but most wizards don't take those IME.Leather Armor, Hide Armor, Shields, and many weapons can each be made in a single day.  The existing town artisans as a collective can already manufacture basic gear faster than the wizard spending several higher level spell slots.What a high level martial can do that a wizard does not is maintain a small standing army in their bastion that's already geared up and trained.From the description for wall of stone..."The wall doesn’t need to be vertical or rest on a firm foundation. It must, however, merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone."Wizards can only make a wall of stone where there existing stone structure to support it.  This is not typical of a small town.A fighter can, however, organize workers to log wood and build defensive structures, and / or dig trenches with wooden stakes as examples of things they can do.Martials can do things with those skills including the things I mentioned and you just agreed with.Except your wizard examples really weren't very good.  Skills cover scouting and spying very well, fabricate is so limited that it's not even a real argument because of the rate of item create and the need for skills and the need for the material resources in the first place, and a small town isn't likely to have those supporting stone structures in a typical setting for wall of stone.But even if the wizard was using those options, that wizard has used up their high level spells creating defenses and cannot use those spell slots when the enemy attacks.  The fighter can still fight at full strength after helping shore up defenses.The wizard isn't actually good at killing large numbers of foes quickly either because of hit point inflation, but also because that wizard is already using up all their high level slots per your argument to create walls of stone and equipment.Do you think the wizard is going to ask the attackers to stop attacking so he can take a long rest when they attack while he's building fortifications?  ;-)Yep.That's not a proven statement.  The limitations on spell slots exists that doesn't exist on actions in a day.  It's not until tiers 3 and 4 that spellcasters become good.In the many years of playing I've never seen a wizard exerting power of the world outside of whiteroom theory and as an NPC villain plot device.  This looks like hyperbole.Gygax didn't write these rules and we're not playing 1e.  That's outdated information.Or 1 sleep spell with 4 martials gangpiling sleeping targets one at a time.  The problem isn't that fireball doesn't have uses.  The problem is it takes 5 fireballs in the first place to soften up CR4-6 monsters in the first place.  Spending excessive resources on damage isn't sustainable and is less efficient than using CC spells while martials use options that don't use up those resources in the same way.That's the epitome of anecdotal evidence.  DDB stats releases has already demonstrated that non-caster fighters and rogues are more prevalent.  In my case, my favorite rogue is still the thief and my favorite fighter is still the battle master, but the champion is more interesting now with the massive amount of heroic inspiration they access at higher levels.The spell not sticking is another of the drawbacks people seem to ignore in these discussions.  They always seem to be from the point of view of full resources that can be expended without caution using abilities that always stick.  Typically giving scenarios catered to those abilities too.The caster supremacy arguments seem very whiteroomy to me.</blockquote>

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