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Message: <blockquote data-quote="(Psi)SeveredHead" data-source="post: 6089253" data-attributes="member: 1165">Players propose a solution, then step back and give the DM space. I've seen this work well, and poorly, often the latter due to a pushy player. Also, the DM should be able to "take back" after a while, if it seems a long term strategy (such as the fairy dust mentioned) turns out to be crazy or problematic.Invisibility and other such buff spells allow a save if you try to force them. So I'd allow a save, probably Will DC 13 though (minimum save DC, as is standard for items).Here's an example that should have worked. It was in 4e, and one player wanted to drop a stone arch on NPCs, who were moving about in mobs. The rules would have made that an AoE attack against Reflex, damage being a limited expression attack. It would have dealt extra damage to the mob. Unfortunately, I was against the idea at first, and the players ended up not going through with it. (Even DMs can have a bad day.)And an example that didn't work. In Pathfinder, alchemists can make bombs, and presumably larger batches of explosives. We had chased a troll army into a cave system and wanted to make bombs to seal them in or drop rocks or fire on them if they came out the only entrance large enough for a troll. Alas, the alchemist class (as far as I can tell, it's not a core class) doesn't have any limit on explosives, basically having an at-will bomb attack. The alchemist player was really loud and demanding and bowled over the DM. So we didn't get to fight the trolls, which I was upset at, because the troll leader was actually a cool NPC and I wanted to see if he could fight and lead troops as well as he could talk. (Said troll made a total fool of us in an earlier social encounter, we of course presuming he was only barely smarter than the typical troll.)It's hindsight, which is why I think the DM needs to be given time, but if I were the DM I would have let the alchemist make four bombs per day, each doing 2d6 damage x alchemist level, and the alchemist gets to choose whether the damage is fire or untyped. Untyped bombs could trap the trolls under rocks until they dig out (giving a big combat advantage) but fire against trolls... the smartest strategy would be two bombs of each type, I guess. I probably wouldn't let bomb damage overlap, but this means a smart alchemist could set one bomb to go off on round one, a second to go off on a round two, etc. This would cut back on an alpha strike though, so again, a choice.The bombs would give the PCs an advantage, possibly a big one, but couldn't cancel an encounter by themselves.(I'd also, again this is with hindsight, let the trolls dig a second path out so they could pull a flanking attack at some point.)</blockquote>

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