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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6092564" data-attributes="member: 42582">Well, I could equally respond that you are confusing what the rulebooks say - these are characterised as action-resolution mechanics - with how these things are actualy used at tables.The whole debate over Perception and Diplomacy checks in 3E, the angst over scry-buff-teleport, etc, is a debate over who is to enjoy scene-framing authority, and what degree of force the GM is entitled to use to overrade player use of their PC abilities to reframe.Imagine how many debates could be avoided by clear designer commentary, pointing out that for some players a high Diplomacy score means that they want to have intricate action resolution experiences involving social situations - and then giving the mechanics to handle that - whereas for others a high Diplomacy score means that they never want to enage in social action resolution, and want to use skill-check based reframing as an alternative! Then each table could simply work out which option applies to them.Sure. That's why you find players trying to use action resolution mechanics for scene-reframing instead, and why even trad RPG designers include mechanics that lend themselves to such use in their games.I personally don't see the point of coyness, though. It may be that back in the 70s and early 80s the relevant analytic framework was not available, but now that it is, let's use it! How many Traveller games were wrecked, for instance, by struggles between players and GMs over scene-framing that were hidden inside debates about whether or not the PCs can buy passage to another planet? Insisting that this is all about action resolution won't make the struggle disappear - it just makes it hard to work out what is really going on, which is a prelude to sorting out the conflict.Whereas I thnk it is more illuminating to note that the lack of interset in action resolution on Hussar's part is one clear indicator that what he is really trying to do is to reframe the scene.That is not what I said, though. I said that, when players are given the power to reframe scenes, they are likely to use them to reframe boring scenes in more interestig ways.Due mostly to my trad sensibilities, though, I prefer to run a game where the GM is in charge of scene-framing; and player desires to reframe are handled informally via conversation and "social contract". And it is certainly possible to design a game in which action resolution mechanics don't bleed into re-framing capabilities. 4e is only one of many examples.I'm prepared to treat that as true in virtue of tautology. The question is, what makes an event be one of potential substance? I can tell you that in my game trekkig across a desert would not, as such, satisfy that description. I have a reasonalby strong aversion to all travel/trekking play, and would be happy to free-narrate all of it, but my players enjoy a bit of it from time to time and so I do my best to indulge them. But I think I am right to say that in over 30 years of GMing, struggling against the elements has never, in itself, been a focus in my games. (The closest I can remember coming was when a PC caught a cold from sleeeping out in the cold and rain, and then - as part of the action resolution mechanic for a particular penatly-ignoring martial arts move in Rolemater, ended up escalating his penalty from -10 to somewhere above -70, and hence nearly died of pneumonia before the other PCs got him back to civilisation.)From which I infer, having done so, that overland travel is very easily handwaved.I don't really see what Schroedinger has to do with it. It's possible to have a pretty detailed map and still incorporate new/unexpected elements. For instance, I ran a City of Greyhawk game for several years using the boxed set maps, and it wasn't very hard to include new/unanticipated details.And I don't really see what the railroad comment has to do with anything. Here are two exercises of GM scene-framing authority:(1) "As you ride your centipede through the desert, you find it hard to hold on and are in danger of sliding of its chitinous back. Give me a Ride check." (2) "As you ride your centipede throught the desert, you think you see some worked stone sticking out of the sand in the distance. Give me a Perception check."You've made it clear that you have a fondness for (1). I personally, both as player and GM, find (2) more interesting. And I certainly don't see (2) has any special railroading property that (1) lacks.</blockquote>

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