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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6092985" data-attributes="member: 4937">This seems to be an area we are in agreement on.  I'll go further and say that a DM errs if he gets invested even in as much as whether something should be resolved.  Obviously that's a mute issue for a tournament, but DMs can also get invested in ensuring that the players goals are the same as his own - even when the DM isn't really invested in the how. This term 'reframing' is getting bantered around way to loosely.  There is nothing about reframing the scene in solving a problem.  Solving the problem presented in the scene using in game resources is still clearly part of the scene.  It may have a 'twist' or not, but its not scene reframing.  That's just pure action resolution.  Nothing about the setting has changed.  The setting remains exactly how it was described.  The players have done nothing to try to hijack the setting or force an outcome.   I mean, if was running a tournament, I'd probably try to figure out how long it took to fly up and float back down too, but I'm not going to try to stop the plan, punish the plan or anything else.  It's a good plan. There is ZERO scene reframing going on in using magic items to jump over a cliff.  There is ZERO scene reframing going on even in turning a combat problem into a stealth and evasion problem or a diplomacy problem or anything else.  That doesn't reframe the scene because DM is never required to reset the stage, and the PC's aren't actually adding anything to the scene.  We are still in the same scene, the players have just made some propositions based on the rules.  That's not scene framing.   Now if the player proposed an outcome to the DM, "Ok, we can do this in like 6 rounds, and then we hustle down through the fir would to the gate.  What do we find at the gate?", that would be an attempt by the player to scene frame.   Scene framing involves altering the game from the outside of game state.  It involves being able to control the narrative.  The player in my example is trying to sneak outside of the proposition/fortune/outcome loop by forcing a DM to accept a scene frame that is likely at least partially invalid (but favorable to the player).This usage of 'reframing power' is getting so vague I'm not even sure what anyone means by it.  It's not scene framing as I've ever understood the term to say something like, "I put on my ring of feather fall."   How the heck do you consider that scene reframing?  The term is taking from cinema and involves the director changing the focus of the shot.  How can anyone inside the shot reframe that shot by any action they take?  Now granted, the actors can 'walk off the stage' and now the director must compose a new shot - frame the scene - and in RPG's you can do lots of things to leave the scene and in a system like D&D there is normally a continious series of 'quick takes' - round by round or turn by turn or hour by hour resolutions.  Actors in the scene can do unexpected things - and from a narrative perspective you hope they do.  Bring the twists and stuff.  But that's not scene reframing and it certainly isn't scene framing by the player.</blockquote>

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