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<blockquote data-quote="Greenfield" data-source="post: 6095752" data-attributes="member: 6669384">The Save ve Disguise Self is in no wy related to the Save v Dust of Illusion.&nbsp; One is to see through it, the other is to resist having the effect go off at all.&nbsp; Additionally, Dust of Choking and Sneezing allows a Save, and has already been mentioned in this discussion.&nbsp; Maybe circular logic flies where you live, but around here it kinda falls flat.&nbsp; Dust of Disappearance doesn't list a Save.&nbsp; Presuming that it does, and then using that to support the claim that it does, or to tear down arguments that it might not is really bad logic, and really poor argumentative technique.&nbsp; Since I'm forbidden from saying what I think of your mental processes, I'll simply ask that you stop presuming that we're all fools.And you would be wrong because there's a strong precedent set for &quot;Greater&quot; versions of spells to be based on the lesser.&nbsp; In fact, there's a section in the rules describing this very thing.Magic items, on the other hand, frequently operate in ways completely different from the spells used to create them.&nbsp; And by &quot;frequently&quot; I mean &quot;almost always&quot;.Examples:&nbsp; SR doesn't apply against Flaming weapon, even though the item has a caster level and a base spell needed to create.&nbsp; Bracers of Armor are based on Mage Armor, but can give bonuses other than +4.&nbsp; A Necklace of Missiles can include Fireball missiles below 5 hit dice, even though 5 is the minimum caster level to throw Fireball at all.&nbsp; One of the Quall's Feather Tokens can create an oak tree, as an instantaneous effect (hence no duration) even though the item is based on Major Creation.&nbsp; The tree far exceeds the volume limit for the spell (five foot diameter trunk, sixty feet high, forty foot diameter crown), and the spell never lets you create living things.I could go on, but if you want a more complete list just look in the DMG.&nbsp; Other than items which explicitly cast spells, such as wands, scrolls, etc., almost none of the items operate the way the spells used to create them do.So, in conclusion, you have basic facts wrong, your logic is circular, and your examples are weak at best.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Greenfield, post: 6095752, member: 6669384"] The Save ve [I]Disguise Self[/I] is in no wy related to the Save v Dust of Illusion. One is to see through it, the other is to resist having the effect go off at all. Additionally, Dust of Choking and Sneezing allows a Save, and has already been mentioned in this discussion. [I][/I] Maybe circular logic flies where you live, but around here it kinda falls flat. Dust of Disappearance doesn't list a Save. Presuming that it does, and then using that to support the claim that it does, or to tear down arguments that it might not is really bad logic, and really poor argumentative technique. Since I'm forbidden from saying what I think of your mental processes, I'll simply ask that you stop presuming that we're all fools. And you would be wrong because there's a strong precedent set for [I]"Greater[/I]" versions of spells to be based on the lesser. In fact, there's a section in the rules describing this very thing. Magic items, on the other hand, frequently operate in ways completely different from the spells used to create them. And by "frequently" I mean "almost always". Examples: SR doesn't apply against Flaming weapon, even though the item has a caster level and a base spell needed to create. [I][/I]Bracers of Armor are based on [I]Mage Armor[/I], but can give bonuses other than +4. A Necklace of Missiles can include [I]Fireball[/I] missiles below 5 hit dice, even though 5 is the minimum caster level to throw [I]Fireball[/I] at all. One of the Quall's Feather Tokens can create an oak tree, as an instantaneous effect (hence no duration) even though the item is based on [I]Major Creation[/I]. The tree far exceeds the volume limit for the spell (five foot diameter trunk, sixty feet high, forty foot diameter crown), and the spell never lets you create living things. I could go on, but if you want a more complete list just look in the DMG. Other than items which explicitly cast spells, such as wands, scrolls, etc., almost none of the items operate the way the spells used to create them do. So, in conclusion, you have basic facts wrong, your logic is circular, and your examples are weak at best. [/QUOTE]

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