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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Greenfield" data-source="post: 6095994" data-attributes="member: 6669384">To be clear, I accept that there should be a Save, that it simply didn't occur to the authors that the Dust would be used on an unwilling target.But sometimes a bad argument needs to be dealt with, even if the conclusion might be correct.Ever see the math trick for reducing fractions?  7C/7B = C/B, by "cancelling the sevens"?  A variation on that is 16/64.  Cancel the 6s and you get 1/4.  The right answer, but for all the wrong reasons. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />With that in mind, Scrolls use the casting stat of the user instead of the creator because the user is actually casting the spell.  It's a bad example for how Saves should work for any other spell casting item, including Necklace of Missiles.By the same token, Wands use the minimum caster stat bonus needed to cast the spell, so a Wand of Fireballs has a Save of 14 (10 + 3 for spell level, +1 for a casting stat of 13).  That's almost certainly where the Save for Necklace of Fireballs comes from. When creating a magic item like a Wand, you can create it at any caster level you like, so long as it doesn't exceed your actual level, and is at least the minimum to cast the spell in question.  Necklace of Fireballs, by that logic, shouldn't have a missile lower than 5 dice, since 5 is the minimum caster level for Fireball.  No sweat, really, since the Necklace isn't really the same as a Wand.The point was that other than items the specifically cast spells (Wands, Staffs and Scrolls and a very few Rings), very few magic items work exactly the way the spells they're based upon do.  Now some, like Dust of Disappearance, specifically say that they work like the spell.  In this case it then goes on to say that/how it doesn't work like the spell, and while it doesn't list a Save, it also doesn't say that there isn't one.Here's a fun one for you:  One of Quall's Feather Tokens can, as mentioned, create a tree, as an instantaneous effect.  If you cast that down to activate it, and you do it right under an enemy, what happens? Does the enemy get shoved aside as the tree fills the 5 foot square (5 foot diameter drunk, 60 feet high, 40 foot diameter crown)?  Do they get lifted up as the tree shoots up?  Do they get thrown by the sudden growth of an oak tree?  Are they tangled in its branches?  Are they somehow embedded in tree?  (It's an instantaneous creation effect.)  Does the tree appear at all if the area is blocked?Fun use:  Dragon diving down, using that tactic that the books say they despise but still include a feat for:  Snatch and grapple.  On readied action, have a 60 foot oak tree appear right in front of him.The rules include damage for a fall, but not for damage from slamming into a tree (or a Wall of Stone ) at high speed.  I personally see that as an oversight, but that's just me.On that topic, how would adjudicate a character being fired over a wall using a catapult?  As a fall from the peak height of the flight arc, or more?  And how would you calculate the peak height?  (My own thought would be to apply the same damage as the character would take if struck by a catapult stone, but that's more convenient than right.)</blockquote>

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