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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6096120" data-attributes="member: 4937">How does that make sense?  If I say, "Ok, you get hirelings and spears and four hours later you are back at the entrance of the Dungeon of Unnatural Evil.", in terms of time pressure its the exact same thing as if we play out all four hours round by round.  The same amount of in game time has transpired.   I understand that you wanted to handwave the time, but you can't make an in game reason for an out of game methodology like handwaving.   From the characters perspective, the same things happen.  The only difference is play experience, not in game 'time pressure'.   Out of game time pressure maybe, but not an in game time line.But really, if its an in game time pressure issue, your plan sucks, because obtaining henchmen generally requires days to get suitable applicants.   This is discussed in detail on page 35 of the 1st edition DMG, and so far as I know those general guidelines are still in force or at least still perfectly reasonable.  So if days may pass, what do you think the chances are no other events will occur in the world while you are hunting for recruits for your damn fool idealistic crusade?Again, my question is, "Why?"  Are you saying that the Grell isn't intelligent enough to vacate the premise?  Are you suggesting NPC's should take no action 'off stage', and that NPC's basically just exist to sit there and get killed by adventurers?And again, I'd be like, "Challenges?  What are you talking about?  I don't have a preference about how you go about accomplishing your goals, but that grell wasn't a challenge.  It might possibly have been a goal along the lines of, "There is a monster eating livestock at night.  I'll pay you 100 g.p. if you find and kill it."  Most of the time, presumably you think the grell was in the way of getting to your goal, something like "Retrieve the admantium widget." or "Recover the lost treasure from the fabled Caverns of Easy Pickings."  Now it isn't in your way.  The grell was never a 'challenge' in the first place.  It didn't exist solely to put a combat challenge in a linear corridor between A and B.  I had no idea whether you were going to bribe it, fight it, charm it, or what and no real preference.  It was a monster.  It was an aberration attracted to this liar because it could get convienent meals without a lot of humans with pokey bits of metal accosting it.  But why am I telling you this anyway?  Your character has no way of knowing what the grell was thinking, or why it was there, or why it doesn't appear to be here now."You still haven't explained to me why killing the grell was important?If you just want to town portal back, gather resources, town portal back, and return to a static predictable encounter with a foe that is in basically the last state you left it, what do you need a DM for?  A computer can give you that experience.  Why don't we just mouse over NPC's and give them red or green auras according to what you are supposed to do with them?  If you just want to treat NPC's as either game pieces or challenges, you could play the game solo.  Roll random encounters, and then see if you can over come them.  Again, no need for a DM.   And for someone who seems to be really invested in overcoming challenges, you see to be equally invested in challenges that are easy and predictable and skippable if you aren't interested in that particular challenge.  How is that a 'challenge'?  We have a bit of hypocricy here.  The players are supposed to surprise the DM and have a reasonable expectation that that will be validated, but the DM isn't supposed to surprise the players?  That's invalid?  If you leave a dungeon and return, it's 100% likely that any intelligent inhabitants will have taken actions while you were gone.  Things won't be like you left them ever.  If you attack the hobgoblin liar, and then flee, if you did signficant damage its 100% likely they'll grab up their treasure and imps and run.  If you don't do signficant damage its 100% likely they'll be on high alert, that they'll have rigged up additional defences, and that if they don't have a back door that they started digging one while you where gone.  That's about as old school as it gets.  There is absolutely ZERO expectation that an experienced player should have that intelligent monsters will stay in a state of suspended animation while they are off doing whatever.  And that's by the book - page 104 and 105 of the 1st edition DMG and so far as I know those sorts of guidelines are still applicable.  Really how long you've been playing that you don't expect that sort of thing to happen?   I mean sure, maybe the monster is still in the dungeon, there is a reasonable chance that it doesn't know where else to go.  But if its still in the dungeon, maybe it rigs up a fake Grell from strips of cloth and the entrials of a dead cow to lure you into wasting attacks on the fake, or who knows what.If you don't need a DM to play the way you seem to prefer to play, who is wasting whose time?</blockquote>

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