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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jackinthegreen" data-source="post: 6096222" data-attributes="member: 6678119">If a Deck of Illusions had a save listed there in its description, that's what the save would be.  There is no save listed in the item's description. That is the crux of the argument.  The vast, overwhelming majority of wondrous items that do replicate spells specifically list the save, even if it wouldn't have been necessary to because of the rules on page 214.  The Deck and Dust do not list any saving throw.  Why is that?  Is it a misprint?  If so, such things would surely have gotten an errata entry to include a save.  They do not.  It seems entirely plausible that the designers intended the items not to have a saving throw despite being based off or even using a spell that normally does grant one.  Is it such a stretch to say that they can make exceptions?  No.  To quote a paragraph from the magic item save section:That can be interpreted one of two (or maybe more, but I've only identified two) ways.  First, "most item descriptions give saving throw DCs for various effects..." can mean that most item descriptions have DCs listed, but some do not, and it's intentionally that way because the item simply doesn't have a save.  Second, them saying "most item descriptions give saving throw DCs for various effects" could mean that they built themselves and escape clause which would allow them or the DM to fudge things.  It would be like saying "we've included a save for most things, so you can fill in the rest."  I don't buy this second one personally, mostly because I just don't see WotC being quite that odd when it comes to their rules.As for whether there is nothing to debate here, keep in mind debates only occur when two sides feel they're right but they are somehow in disagreement.  Clearly there is a debate, if an informal version, because I feel that the right interpretation is that there are no saves on those two items because none are listed in their descriptions, whereas you feel it is right for them to have saves because magic items have saves according to the general magic item save rules, despite the fact that no saves are in the specific descriptions.Replying to the DM style topic: Does the game break down when a DM allows players/characters to do certain whims with little to no involvement from the DM?  If so, how much does it break down?  Are there times where it would be appropriate for the DM to be "hands-off?"  Are there times where it might be expected for the DM to take a back seat, and should the DM do so?  Is it still a game if the DM is a little less involved here and there, or otherwise caters a bit more to the players/characters?</blockquote>

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