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Message: <blockquote data-quote="nijineko" data-source="post: 6096407" data-attributes="member: 52240">well. i will go ahead after all and throw in my 2 cents. d&d is based on rule 0. the DM is in charge. the DM says what is right, the DM decides what happens, the DM is the entire universe other than the PCs, and a specific monster does not have to oblige the PCs in any way, unless it makes in-context sense for it to do so. on the other hand, d&d is also based on rule 0a. it is a game, and everyone is supposed to be enjoying it. this implies a social contract with a consensus of some kind with regards to what the players and dm wants out of the game. one point is that, unless the contract established in rule 0a overrides by mutual consent rule 0, the players have no say in any part of any d&d-based universe, except for what the player's own characters do and say. it's not a democracy, people. it's a monarchy. and the dm is king or queen. that is RAW and RAI. though again, like any game - it's your game. if you want to change the rules, go ahead and do it. just be sure everyone agrees to it to avoid most future problems. in reading through most of the previous discussion, i seem to detect a dissonance between what the character would think and do, versus what the player would think and do. here is what i mean: if i were playing a character seriously bent on finding and fighting that grell, then when i went back, and found it missing, i would search for tracks, look for clues, and if needed, hire a tracker. maybe i missed it, if so i apologize. i wouldn't chose as a player (which is what appears to me to have happened based on reading what was written) to give up and gripe and whine and complain about it and go on and on about "how the game should be". again, if i am mistaken, i apologize - no insult intended, but if there was not such a contract clearly and specifically agreed to by all at or before the time the game first began, there is no ground to stand upon with such arguments. were i in those shoes... (and assuming no contract overruling rule 0 is in place) instead i would show by my character's actions what i want to happen and how i want the game to go. no grell where i expect it? see above. if need be, find an npc spellcaster to cast locate object or find the path (to the grell's lair so i can lay in wait) or similar divination spell to get information to track down the grell. NPCs want to chat with me about other stuff? attempt to recruit them to hunt the grell. network with them to find people who can help me find the grell. unless they had some serious issue that they present to me which would logically vie with and potentially overwhelm, or at least delay, my characters burning desire to hunt down the grell, i would persist in my course and ignore other events and plot hooks until such time as it would, as i said, logically catch my PCs attention more strongly than the grell hunt does. as a dm, were i faced with such a divergence, i would take behind the scenes actions to fulfill not only the player's desires, but to move the plot along. suddenly the grell is no longer just some random monster encounter. it's involved with the plot somehow. i'll tie the two together so that the paths cross. follow the grell, they will find some information about what the NPCs were talking about. talk with the NPCs, they will learn of some clues to the whereabouts and/or activities of the grell. no plot survives first (or second or third) contact with the PCs. if a dm can't be flexible enough to incorporate what interests the players into the game, i have my doubts about that DMs capability and experience. (and by extension, actually dealing with things in real life... now everyone starts somewhere, but this sort of thing is a must-learn, i feel safe in saying. learn it or get out of the chair. multiple attempts are permitted, so long as you are honestly trying to learn.) and by logical extension, if the player can't likewise be flexible enough to roll with, through, or around challenges... get out of the chair and go play another game. you have no business playing this one. again, exceptions for those who are honestly learning and trying. the point of d&d is to face challenges and to win some, and lose some. maybe even die dramatically. that's why there are revivify and resurrection spells and powers, so that you can die dramatically, and then still keep playing. if you didn't like how something went down, talk to the dm out of game. express your feelings in a mature and logical fashion. see if the dm is willing to work in a way to track down and lay some serious smack on the grell. i recall that i did what i was talking about with a minor villain earlier in one campaign of mine. the PCs took an unusual interest in nailing this guy down who had escaped from them two or three times. they finally nailed him and trapped him in a place they were sure he would not get free of. now, about three years later in real time, and a few months later in game time, he has shown himself again - and managed to steal back some items the players had taken from him which he displayed tauntingly to the players as he disappeared. they spent quite a bit of time seriously hunting him down, only to have him escape them yet again. now he is going to be a major reoccurring villain, at least as long as he lasts. given the party in question, i have my doubts that i'll be able to keep him going for very long once they get within striking or ambushing distance of him. ^^ but hey, so long as they are invested, i'll make use of that to entertain them and bring them greater satisfaction in bringing him down in the end. i also had a 'this sucks' moment when one of my favorite characters died because i made three serious, obvious, major blunders. i went down in a combat that i had to win. and i lost because i made three stupid mistakes that i would have face-palmed on seeing anyone else do. so, i took an week or so off. literally. i had to walk out of the game - i was so badly affected. i felt like crying. (which is kinda silly, really, but it shows just how emotionally vested i had become in that character and the outcome of that encounter.) in any case, once i'd worked through my emotions, i sat down with the dm and we calmly discussed my situation, and then ways and means. we worked out a plot-preserving but character-satisfactory solution that provided a way for my character to come back to life (with the usual level loss) and not only preserved the plot, but actually moved it along forward. now, after it all, that is one of my favorite stories - screw ups included. and that campaign is still on-going. i'm going to venture a line of thought here. i haven't worked out all the implications or ramifications of it, so please take that into account. a player who gets to decide what happens in the plot is not a player, but a dm. certain game styles which have been brought up in the recent discussion sound like have a group of DMs all playing together....which in turn sounds like having a game session which consists of a group of micro-DMs all touting their pet dmpc with someone marginally responsible (ie: storyteller/gm/dm/referee/whatever) for providing suitable trappings for said collection of pet DMPCs to play in... i guess that may be what some people want, but as for me, and i shall state this politely, as opposed to the first three descriptives that occurred to me: i feel a strong, very strong, adverse feeling to that style of play. i do realize (intellectually) that it doesn't necessarily have to turn out that way. but... no thanks.</blockquote>

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