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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6096789" data-attributes="member: 4937">I have given detailed concrete examples of how any proposed action would be adjudictated.  These examples already prove that your blanket statements are false and hyberbolic.  Nonetheless, since you've chosen to summarize, I will also summarize.   Any attempt at a doubtful proposition will be given a reasonable chance to succeed in accordance with the rules.  In general this means things of average difficulty have a DC 10 difficulty, whereas things which are easy have DC 5 difficulty and things which are difficult and suggestive of expert skill have a DC 15 difficulty.  Therefore, actions are subject to checks that almost certainly mean their success in most cases, and should be automatic success for characters of mid-level that have invested resources to that end.  For example, a sixth level character can easily manage 9 ranks + 2 attribute bonus and sundry other +2 bonuses from whatever source whether competency, aid other, masterwork tools, racial etc for at least a +13 bonus.   I have a party of 6th level characters and I happen to know that in a few cases the bonuses are higher than that.  Therefore against a DC 15 such a character only fails on the role of 1.   Failures in general are not catestrophic.  For example, the failure for ride check under stress is only 1d6 damage.  And such checks are only going to occur a few times, and as I've indicated are mostly assumed rather than imposed risk.  Not body is going to make you ride a giant centipede up the sheer face of a cliff.  You can always go through the canyon.   And that's not even getting into the parties magical and creative resources.   If you really want to go straight up a cliff, I'm sure a creative party will figure a way to do it.Here's the thing.  I don't owe you 'cool'.  Cool is something you earn.  I have a Sidhe rogue among my current players that can flip around the battlefield like some Wuxia kung fu fighter.  But I don't give him that.  It's on his character sheet.  He's earned it by investing resources in it.  Players don't get to rule the game by the rule of cool.  When things are doubtful, cool rules.  But if we have rules for something, you pass your fortune check and then you recieve your cool... or not.   It may be cool for the hobgoblin fighter to leap on to the back of the Sea Dragon, grab it by its horn, and start stabbing it thourgh the eyes with his two-sword in the other hand, but by golly he has to make his clinch combat manuever check and attack rolls to manage it.  Which he did by the way.  It may have even been cooler to down the Sea Dragon with one stab, but just because the player thinks that would be cool doesn't mean we make it happen.  We make it happen when you earn.  And that is always infinitely cooler than the DM giving you something.So tell me, when is the last time you did anything as cool as my players?   And you think I'm taking cool away from people?  Do you bullrush zombies off of 400' cliffs?  Do you run down streets with 30' foot waves carrying tall sailing ships up the street crashing behind you?  Have you fled a horde of hellhouds over the roof tops of a city?  Do you leap across the backs of hellhounds and stab them from behind?  Do you load your hippogriff with firebombs and dive bomb sailing ships firing 36 ballista at you in the midst of a battle of 1000's of screaming sailors in a bloodstained sea?  Do your characters call out to the gods and have them send angels to lift them out of the battle?  Have your characters intimidated a 60' long sea serpent into retreating by screaming at it?  Have they been called upon to destroy a weapon designed to kill gods, and succeeded?  My PC's are only sixth level, and the do more epic things before breakfast than occur in many campaigns.  Do your really think your games are so much cooler than mine?  Are you really so much more satisfied with the DM's you've got?You know, in all the time I've been playing, I don't think I've ever had any complain that my NPC's weren't shallow enough.  No one has ever said to me after a session, "You know, I just really like how shallow and characterless and bland your NPC's are.  It really makes the game great to have all these colorless immemorable NPC's like what his name."   Actually, the sort of comments I usually get are things like, "If Andrzej was real, I'd date him."  "You've spoiled me on DM's, ####, I can't play with anyone else." or "You've got the best NPC characterization I've ever seen."  Yes, I'm not going to introduce an NPC that is going to potentially spend considerable time with the players and may directly influence whether a PC lives or dies, without spending at least some time on that.   I mean imagine just for a second you are recruiting in the Keep on the Borderland, and you want to recruit henchmen.  The first guy that shows up to help is a freakin' Cleric of Chaos.  You sure you don't want to play that out?  You sure you have no interest in who you recruit?  Really?  I'm not screwing anyone over by letting them interact with the environment.  Quite the opposite.   I'm not going to apologize for having deep meaningful NPCs.   And I sure as hell am not going to stop creating them because personifying NPC's is how I have fun at the table, so anyone ever where to say, "Stop creating interesting NPC's.", I'll definately be, "Screw you.  I'm playing this game too."Ok, I'm all with that.  So, what are you going to do?  Let hear some concrete actions.  You've been playing this game how long and you think "I want to raise a posse" is a valid actionable proposition?  Are you one of those players that says, "I introduce myself to the Baron.", so that I have to say, "Ok, introduce yourself to the Baron."?   What do you do?  Do you have broadsheet printed up?  Do you hire town criers?  Do you go into the taverns and try to recruits mercenaries?  Do you want to try to appeal to the authorities, like the magistrates or the temples?  I have no idea what is going to happen until you give me some details.  And then when you do, whatever you do, you are going to get a fortune mechanic.   Some rolls will be made based on what you do and they'll tell me and you, how successful you were.  That's how games like these work.  Examples are outlined in detail on page 35 and 36 of the 1st ed. AD&D DMG, and Gygax spends a lot of time detailing all the ins and outs of aquiring help.  It was an important topic, and it still is.  I don't know how successful you are going to be.  I can't tell you whether a plan is feasible until you do it.  I can't tell you what the draw backs will be until you fill me in on the details.   I won't have a clue what the odds of success will be.  I'm just the DM.  You know what they call it when the DM knows everything that is going to happen regardless of what the players do?   A railroad.  Maybe you'll go into the Temple of Justian, give a rousing IC speach about protecting the city from the forces of evil, roll '20' on your Diplomacy check and recruit in under an hour a whole force of Templars lead by a 3rd level Champion of Justian in shining full plate armor who says, "Lead on, stalwart comrade."  Or maybe you go into a bar and they laugh at you, and after two days you are trying to figure out whether the farmboy in front of you (who is a 2nd level commoner, though you don't know that) has the chops to help in a fight or whether that roguish female of uncertain past isn't going to rob you blind as soon as you get out of town.  Or maybe she falls in love with a PC.  I don't know.  But I'm never going to know unless you do something and actually play the game.And yes, the Grell may be where you expect it to be and it might not.  It may have left.  It may be lurking three rooms on hoping to ambush you.  I'd probably dice for it, so I'm not sure either.  The guy who said, "I hope we have the Track skill.", is problem solver.  And you seem to deal with problems by metagaming - getting 'shirty' as you call it.First of all, I admit that I'm not used to 'opt out of the game' players such as you've described yourself being.  If you think crossing the desert on the back of a monstrous centipede is cool, why should I expect that you wouldn't want to play that out?  How was I to understand immediately that it becomes more cool if we only talk about it rather than doing it?  Frankly, I prefer showing over telling.  I can wax prosiacly with the best of them, but I'll never be able to narrate things as coolly as it is to actually play.  You memorable stories about crossing the desert that your friends talk about 20 years later, you won't get them by me narrating how you arrive at your destination without incident.  That's not how cool is made.Where the heck did this come from?  No where have I ever said 'No' to a proposition you've advanced.  If you want to have your character eaten up with the desire for vegenance on the Grell, that's your business.  I wasn't telling anyone how to play the character.  I was discussing your metagame and speculating on the reasons why you play like you do. If you do great.  I'd apologize and wish you luck.  Nearly thirty years into my DMing career and I'm still learning and still wrestling with how to frame things in ways that move well and give oppurtunity for maximum player enpowerment and so forth.  And lately I'm finding I'm getting myself in over my head frequently in terms of the scale of my conception.  It's not as easy as when I was 20 and had no responcibilities.But honestly, you'd be the first.  With the possible exception of my wife on a few occasions, I've never forced anyone to play at my table.  But what makes you think I'd invite you?Yeah, that's me all right.  *rolls eyes*  Everything I've said really screams a guy who disempowers players and tells them what to do, doesn't it?   I don't know who burned you so bad and I don't know what they did, and I can't really tell from all your so frequent declarations and threats about how you're going to get angry whether or not I'm entirely unsympathetic with the guy.   But I can tell you that maybe you'd enjoy the game better with the chip off your shoulder, a bit more trust, a little less 'shirty', and a willingness to accept that there may be ways to make things like NPC interaction, travel, even skill checks a lot more fun than your past experience would indicate.   Who knows, you might even start having fun playing this game.</blockquote>

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