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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6098702" data-attributes="member: 42582">Hiring henchmen only has detailed exploratory rules in 1st ed AD&D (perhaps 2nd ed too? I'm not as familiar with that edition). Those rules are not part of B/X, nor 3E's Leadership feat, nor 4e.Reaction rolls aren't particularly about exploration - they can equally be part of a gamist style of play.Mapping is not called out as part of play in 4e. I'm not sure about 3E or 2nd ed AD&D.Random monster encounters aren't part of 4e per the core rules.Hex clearing is not part of Moldvay Basic (it's introduced in Expert), nor 4e, nor (I think) 3E. I'm not sure about 2nd ed.XP are based on very different systems in different editions. None is terribly exploration focused, though AD&D 1st ed might generate that sort of orientation via its default means of finding treasure.As far as the basic premise of play, what you describe is not part of the premise of huge chunks of post-Dragonlance play.In other words, while I agree that there are affinities of certain parts of D&D over the years with exploratory play, I think your list overstates those affinities.Well, quite (at least if you're talking pre-4e). But equally I very commonly read about how Forge games are very narrow while D&D is very broad and generic, etc.It's an open question whether or not we should use pre-4e D&D to play other than Gygaxian exploratory play, but if (i) the group has decided, for whatever reason (probably habit) to play D&D, and (ii) it becomes clear that a bit of exploration the GM is angling towards is of little or no interest to thte table, then it's not obvious to me that the best way for the GM and the table to proceed is to pursue that exploration.OK. That's certainly not what I have in mind when I talk about scene-framing play.I'm not sure that "railroading" has a normal usage, although GM force is certainly part of it.But despite the controversy over the meaning of the word, I at least found Hussar's meaning pretty clear.What is interesting is what underpins the "have to". For instance, if all the action is inside the cave, then de facto the players have to have their PCs go in if they want to play the game.Sure, though I suspect in practice the degree of hardness of scene framing varies quite a bit across playing groups.BW is fairly clear that the GM is expected to exercise authority in framing scenes. The question is, whose interests is the GM expected to have regard to in exercising that authority? BW, and [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] in his examples, emphasises the preeminence of player interests. The players hook the GM. That is different from (for instance) the default presentation of a post-Gygaxian D&D module, in which the GM hooks the players.First, as I've indicated above in this post, whether D&D is inherently a Gygaxian dungeon crawling game is hugely up for grabs. As I've noted in other posts in other threads, what sucked me into Moldvay Basic wasn't the Gygaxian element - it was the foreword, which said nothing about dungeon crawling and was all about saving the kingdom from the dragon tyrant using a sword acquired from the myseterious cleric.As for whether or not Hussar is being rude at his table, were you there? I wasn't. So I won't comment. But there is nothing remotely objectionable in principle, and no evidence that contradicts that as far as the details are concerned, about Hussar not wanting to engage in (what is from the player point of view) unmotivated exploration.I'd never heard of scene-framing as a formal technique until I first visited the Forge in 2004. But the first time I remember having issues with (what retrospectively I would describe as) framing exploratory scenes in which the players were not interested would be around 1984.At the time I wasn't sure what to do, and just muddled through (though as I've posted in other threads, 1986's Oriental Advetures made a huge difference for me.) I would have loved to have had the Forge advice to draw on back then - it might have saved me having to learn so many things msyelf.Perhaps I'm an especially perceptive GM, but frankly I find it hard to imagine that Hussar's GM didn't realise that Hussar wasn't interested in the desert, and was summoning the centipede for that reason (eg I would have expected the conversation among the players to make that clear).</blockquote>

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