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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6099825" data-attributes="member: 4937">And often, how well a DM deals with this disappointment is the mark of a good DM.&nbsp; One of the worst mistakes you can make as a DM is becoming invested in outcomes.&nbsp; Fantacizing about how a scene is going to play out is almost always counterproductive.&nbsp; Instead, prepare for the scene as if taking a short cut is a valid approach.&nbsp; If you haven't asked, &quot;What happens if they approach this as a social/evasion/stealth encounter?&quot;, you are wasting your imaginative time.&nbsp; Don't settle on a 'right' approach.&nbsp; Don't hope for much less depend on the PC's using 'the right' approach.Heck yeah.&nbsp; I had an NPC that had been a reoccuring foil, but only indirectly.&nbsp; The PC's had been chasing him for a long time, but never been able to bring him to battle.&nbsp; Finally, there was a 'showdown in the OK corral' scene, with the PC party at one end and the foil and his minions down the other end of the street.&nbsp; I'd carefully designed this PC to be really nasty in combat.&nbsp; This was supposed to be a major mini-boss fight.And he went down like a chump.&nbsp; Bad to hit rolls combined with a tactical mistake on my part and good rolls and good play by the PC's, and he just died like any minion never even scratching the players.&nbsp;&nbsp; I was bummed.&nbsp; But you roll with it.&nbsp; A younger me might have tacked on some hit points, but I've learned better.&nbsp; The moment I did that, the players would all start rolling 1's and I'd end up with dead players.&nbsp;&nbsp; It's better to just let them win.&nbsp; There is always another fight.Timing is everything.&nbsp; If the player pulls the rabbit at the beginning of an encounter, chances are the other players will be just as disappointed - and they'll blame the DM for it.&nbsp; The DM is supposed to be 'clever' enough to stop that sort of thing.&nbsp; But if the player pulls a rabbit just as things are looking really tense, that gets talked about for years by everyone (and its fun as heck for DMs too).&nbsp;&nbsp; The DM that stops a rabbit pulling then is likely to be blamed too.&nbsp; Also, the player pulling a rabbit one time to save the day is 'cool'.&nbsp; Other players hate it though when the player pulls the same trick again and again to make everything easy.&nbsp; If that happens, there is a balance issue.&nbsp; Balance issues clobber other players far more than they do DMs.&nbsp; You want an unhappy table, just let one player be the center of attention all the time.&nbsp; The other players may even like the guy, but they'll hate him for taking spotlight in everything.This thread started out as a gripe fest.&nbsp; &quot;Surprising the DM&quot; was a euphamism for, &quot;Look how my bad DM crushed my fun.&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; Some of those complaints where legit - especially some specific complaints against an ill-prepared tournament judge.&nbsp;&nbsp; But on the whole, I really think there is a lot going on here that the original thread just wasn't touching on.&nbsp; Hense, my 'thread-crapping'.&nbsp;&nbsp; Hope I haven't been too offensive, Green'.&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm a little bit disappointed that we are out at page 10 and we haven't even really started engaging the topic yet.&nbsp; That's my fault as much as anything, but I'm worried at this point noone not already involved is even reading.&nbsp;&nbsp; I may have to fork the thread to do some 'thread framing' of the questions I don't think I have full answers to, like for example, &quot;Does a player with a rabbit have a responcibility to the table to only pull it when he knows it is going to be awesome for everyone?&quot;, or, &quot;How should a DM handle being suprised by a player?&quot;, or &quot;How should a player handle being surprised by a DM, given that the player's disappointment is likely to be real?&quot;</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6099825, member: 4937"] And often, how well a DM deals with this disappointment is the mark of a good DM. One of the worst mistakes you can make as a DM is becoming invested in outcomes. Fantacizing about how a scene is going to play out is almost always counterproductive. Instead, prepare for the scene as if taking a short cut is a valid approach. If you haven't asked, "What happens if they approach this as a social/evasion/stealth encounter?", you are wasting your imaginative time. Don't settle on a 'right' approach. Don't hope for much less depend on the PC's using 'the right' approach. Heck yeah. I had an NPC that had been a reoccuring foil, but only indirectly. The PC's had been chasing him for a long time, but never been able to bring him to battle. Finally, there was a 'showdown in the OK corral' scene, with the PC party at one end and the foil and his minions down the other end of the street. I'd carefully designed this PC to be really nasty in combat. This was supposed to be a major mini-boss fight. And he went down like a chump. Bad to hit rolls combined with a tactical mistake on my part and good rolls and good play by the PC's, and he just died like any minion never even scratching the players. I was bummed. But you roll with it. A younger me might have tacked on some hit points, but I've learned better. The moment I did that, the players would all start rolling 1's and I'd end up with dead players. It's better to just let them win. There is always another fight. Timing is everything. If the player pulls the rabbit at the beginning of an encounter, chances are the other players will be just as disappointed - and they'll blame the DM for it. The DM is supposed to be 'clever' enough to stop that sort of thing. But if the player pulls a rabbit just as things are looking really tense, that gets talked about for years by everyone (and its fun as heck for DMs too). The DM that stops a rabbit pulling then is likely to be blamed too. Also, the player pulling a rabbit one time to save the day is 'cool'. Other players hate it though when the player pulls the same trick again and again to make everything easy. If that happens, there is a balance issue. Balance issues clobber other players far more than they do DMs. You want an unhappy table, just let one player be the center of attention all the time. The other players may even like the guy, but they'll hate him for taking spotlight in everything. This thread started out as a gripe fest. "Surprising the DM" was a euphamism for, "Look how my bad DM crushed my fun." Some of those complaints where legit - especially some specific complaints against an ill-prepared tournament judge. But on the whole, I really think there is a lot going on here that the original thread just wasn't touching on. Hense, my 'thread-crapping'. Hope I haven't been too offensive, Green'. I'm a little bit disappointed that we are out at page 10 and we haven't even really started engaging the topic yet. That's my fault as much as anything, but I'm worried at this point noone not already involved is even reading. I may have to fork the thread to do some 'thread framing' of the questions I don't think I have full answers to, like for example, "Does a player with a rabbit have a responcibility to the table to only pull it when he knows it is going to be awesome for everyone?", or, "How should a DM handle being suprised by a player?", or "How should a player handle being surprised by a DM, given that the player's disappointment is likely to be real?" [/QUOTE]

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