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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6103929" data-attributes="member: 4937">This just baffles me.&nbsp; There hasn't been a D&amp;D game since the beginning of time that wasn't both 'game 1' and 'game 2'.&nbsp; Every D&amp;D has a throttle which allows you to control the speed that time passes so that you can get to the next interesting thing with minimal fuss.&nbsp; In combat, every body goes 'round', 'round', 'round'.&nbsp; Out of combat, everyone goes, &quot;10 minutes&quot;, &quot;10 minutes&quot;, &quot;may be an hour&quot;, &quot;a couple hours&quot;, &quot;Ok, I guess its night.&quot;, &quot;Ok, it's morning.&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; Every D&amp;D table expects a certain amount of, &quot;Two days pass, and then....&quot;, or &quot;Three weeks pass, then one morning...&quot;, &quot;After 5 days you arrive in Normalville.&quot;I mean, the fundamental contridiction you are trying to make is nonsense.&nbsp; &quot;Since of wonderment&quot; or &quot;believable world&quot; is not the antithesis of &quot;continuity and progression of rising conflict and its climax &quot;&nbsp; If you look at everyone's complaints about 'bad DMing' none of them have to do with the presence of a 'believable world'.&nbsp;&nbsp; pemerton's &quot;temporal teleport&quot; example has no bearing at all on maintaining causality, continuity, believablity, and wonderment.&nbsp; Pemerton's objection can't be based on any of those things, because all that got destroyed.&nbsp; pemerton's objection is quite the opposite - the DM broke causality, continuity and believability to metagame against him - destroying and undermining the careful built up setting that pemerton had begun to buy into.&nbsp;&nbsp; Hussar's complaints aren't really that DM's were building too believable of a world at the expense of story.&nbsp; Hussar's complaints and pemertons are fundamentally the same - they believe the DM is treating them unfairly!!!&nbsp; That's what the whole thread has been about since the beginning.&nbsp; It's not about GNS - it's about player's feeling mistreated and demanding justice.This doesn't require any big stupid convoluted theories.&nbsp; This is simple.&nbsp; If your players believe they are being treated unfairly, it doesn't matter what agenda they have or you have, you've got a more fundamental problem.&nbsp;&nbsp; Pretending that there is some agenda out there were by players like to be treated unfairly, but you, your not THAT sort of player is just so much ridiculous posturing behind vague semantics.&nbsp; Is there anyone here that likes to be treated unfairly?&nbsp; Sense of outrage is real.&nbsp; &quot;game 1&quot; and &quot;game 2&quot; are purely literary figments.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6103929, member: 4937"] This just baffles me. There hasn't been a D&D game since the beginning of time that wasn't both 'game 1' and 'game 2'. Every D&D has a throttle which allows you to control the speed that time passes so that you can get to the next interesting thing with minimal fuss. In combat, every body goes 'round', 'round', 'round'. Out of combat, everyone goes, "10 minutes", "10 minutes", "may be an hour", "a couple hours", "Ok, I guess its night.", "Ok, it's morning." Every D&D table expects a certain amount of, "Two days pass, and then....", or "Three weeks pass, then one morning...", "After 5 days you arrive in Normalville." I mean, the fundamental contridiction you are trying to make is nonsense. "Since of wonderment" or "believable world" is not the antithesis of "continuity and progression of rising conflict and its climax " If you look at everyone's complaints about 'bad DMing' none of them have to do with the presence of a 'believable world'. pemerton's "temporal teleport" example has no bearing at all on maintaining causality, continuity, believablity, and wonderment. Pemerton's objection can't be based on any of those things, because all that got destroyed. pemerton's objection is quite the opposite - the DM broke causality, continuity and believability to metagame against him - destroying and undermining the careful built up setting that pemerton had begun to buy into. Hussar's complaints aren't really that DM's were building too believable of a world at the expense of story. Hussar's complaints and pemertons are fundamentally the same - they believe the DM is treating them unfairly!!! That's what the whole thread has been about since the beginning. It's not about GNS - it's about player's feeling mistreated and demanding justice. This doesn't require any big stupid convoluted theories. This is simple. If your players believe they are being treated unfairly, it doesn't matter what agenda they have or you have, you've got a more fundamental problem. Pretending that there is some agenda out there were by players like to be treated unfairly, but you, your not THAT sort of player is just so much ridiculous posturing behind vague semantics. Is there anyone here that likes to be treated unfairly? Sense of outrage is real. "game 1" and "game 2" are purely literary figments. [/QUOTE]

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