Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
You're doing what? Surprising the DM
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6106472" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>That's probably true. It's certainly grounded in a certain era and shaped by my particular tastes and experience. </p><p></p><p>But a lot of that is almost straight out of the 1e DMG on expert hirelings (which all combatants count as), so I'd like to think that it isn't that unusual.</p><p></p><p>"Employment must be a matter of offer and acceptance, and each player character must do his own bargaining...The likelihood of encountering any given type of mercenary is strictly up to you as DM...Expert hirelings are generally not available for periods of less than one or more months...They recognize hazardous duty, and the cost per day is the same as per month. The supply of such men-at-arms willing to work day to day is strictly limited, so if the PCs lose them adventuring, more will not be likely to be found."</p><p></p><p>All I'm doing in the above is interpreting on the basis of what I know about history, society, and people why those things are true.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Which is not at all typical. I have never played with a DM that made magic items <em>more available</em> than I do. I'm considered amongst the circles I grew up with extreme in the prevailance of magic as commodity, right really at the edge of what is believable for setting, and generally in every group I have been a player there has been a strong distaste and derision reserved for groups that had 'magic marts' where you could just walk in and buy magic items. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Maybe in your circles, but I've been in groups where a player would have left the group in disgust at picking up a wand as a commodity item at Olivanders. That would be considered childish, ill thought out, and the general presence of magic like that would imply magic as technology which would transform the world in to something quite unrecognizable to them. I suppose these same groups might have been willing to play a well considered techno-magic steampunk setting where magic as commodity was something being explored, but for the default sort of quasi-medieval setting that was generally preferred the notion was scoffed at. Magic as technology was not something common in the fiction of my youth as it is in many current novels.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Don't get me started on class/level demographics.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, well, there are a couple of problems with that. One of the obvious problems is that if the metropolis has dozens or even hundreds of 6th+ level characters, one of the really big questions is what is so special about the PC's anyway? I've seen demographics which suggest that there should never be a standing army or town watch, because the ratio of high level to low level characters is so high that low level characters just don't stand a chance. Why would anyone ever trust 1st level characters to do anything when there are scores of better alternatives? Why would the characters ever get the oppurtunity to do anything important when so many much more capable people are all around them? Much of the demographics in D&D ends up being built around the DM being able to punish, limit, and squash rogue players. All those high level NPCs are there to be completely passive in the face of any looming threat of any sort, except if that threat is the PC's, in which case they spring into ruthless and efficient action. </p><p></p><p>The other issue is the enormous amount of power creep in published settings. The characters of Greyhawk and Kyrnn who shook the world, are about half the level of the characters of FR. Over time there has been a huge inflation in the expected power level of NPCs, much of it driven by a combination of DM PC's and DM railroading. There used to be a time when a 14th level character - whether PC or NPC - was one of a settings mightiest citizens. Now they are local captains of the watch, shopkeepers, bartenders, and mayors.</p><p></p><p>I really don't go that way. For the longest time I stuck with the 0th level NPC's are normal, and 1st level are leaders. Nineth and tenth level characters are of national importance. Then around mid 2nd edition era, without changing the top ends of my demographics I started smoothing out the bottom end a bit to be able to differentiate better between ordinary and ordinary elite. There are a lot more 2nd and 3rds in my game world now, but usually lacking many of the PC's advantages in native ability and equipment (and in my game advantages and destiny). I felt like my demographics ported over really well into 3e, and so I just stuck with them. I'm sure that people who came to the game in its 3e era have different expectations, but I dont' think I'm that unusual.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6106472, member: 4937"] That's probably true. It's certainly grounded in a certain era and shaped by my particular tastes and experience. But a lot of that is almost straight out of the 1e DMG on expert hirelings (which all combatants count as), so I'd like to think that it isn't that unusual. "Employment must be a matter of offer and acceptance, and each player character must do his own bargaining...The likelihood of encountering any given type of mercenary is strictly up to you as DM...Expert hirelings are generally not available for periods of less than one or more months...They recognize hazardous duty, and the cost per day is the same as per month. The supply of such men-at-arms willing to work day to day is strictly limited, so if the PCs lose them adventuring, more will not be likely to be found." All I'm doing in the above is interpreting on the basis of what I know about history, society, and people why those things are true. Which is not at all typical. I have never played with a DM that made magic items [I]more available[/I] than I do. I'm considered amongst the circles I grew up with extreme in the prevailance of magic as commodity, right really at the edge of what is believable for setting, and generally in every group I have been a player there has been a strong distaste and derision reserved for groups that had 'magic marts' where you could just walk in and buy magic items. Maybe in your circles, but I've been in groups where a player would have left the group in disgust at picking up a wand as a commodity item at Olivanders. That would be considered childish, ill thought out, and the general presence of magic like that would imply magic as technology which would transform the world in to something quite unrecognizable to them. I suppose these same groups might have been willing to play a well considered techno-magic steampunk setting where magic as commodity was something being explored, but for the default sort of quasi-medieval setting that was generally preferred the notion was scoffed at. Magic as technology was not something common in the fiction of my youth as it is in many current novels. Don't get me started on class/level demographics. Yeah, well, there are a couple of problems with that. One of the obvious problems is that if the metropolis has dozens or even hundreds of 6th+ level characters, one of the really big questions is what is so special about the PC's anyway? I've seen demographics which suggest that there should never be a standing army or town watch, because the ratio of high level to low level characters is so high that low level characters just don't stand a chance. Why would anyone ever trust 1st level characters to do anything when there are scores of better alternatives? Why would the characters ever get the oppurtunity to do anything important when so many much more capable people are all around them? Much of the demographics in D&D ends up being built around the DM being able to punish, limit, and squash rogue players. All those high level NPCs are there to be completely passive in the face of any looming threat of any sort, except if that threat is the PC's, in which case they spring into ruthless and efficient action. The other issue is the enormous amount of power creep in published settings. The characters of Greyhawk and Kyrnn who shook the world, are about half the level of the characters of FR. Over time there has been a huge inflation in the expected power level of NPCs, much of it driven by a combination of DM PC's and DM railroading. There used to be a time when a 14th level character - whether PC or NPC - was one of a settings mightiest citizens. Now they are local captains of the watch, shopkeepers, bartenders, and mayors. I really don't go that way. For the longest time I stuck with the 0th level NPC's are normal, and 1st level are leaders. Nineth and tenth level characters are of national importance. Then around mid 2nd edition era, without changing the top ends of my demographics I started smoothing out the bottom end a bit to be able to differentiate better between ordinary and ordinary elite. There are a lot more 2nd and 3rds in my game world now, but usually lacking many of the PC's advantages in native ability and equipment (and in my game advantages and destiny). I felt like my demographics ported over really well into 3e, and so I just stuck with them. I'm sure that people who came to the game in its 3e era have different expectations, but I dont' think I'm that unusual. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
You're doing what? Surprising the DM
Top