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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6109597" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>Well, I guess it's possible that a GM could set up and run the wilderness in such a way that it ends up having no bearing on the PC's goals, and all their attempts to interact with or leverage it in pursuit of their goals come to naught. But I personally don't see why a GM would do that.</p><p></p><p>Let's say I roll 5 wandering encounters from the wilderness chart. Then, instead of coloring them as being encounters in the desert, I have the group beseiging the Cathedral of the original example (really, there is no city). Further, I note that the natives have a strong reason for not wanting a non-native to enter the Cathedral which is relevant to setting and true to the scenario. I then run each of the wandering encounters colored as battling through to the Cathedral, which doesn't even require much GM force using 4e and its encounter powers. Now, is this strong scene framing, or weak scene framing? The only difference between this and the original scenario is the amount of imaginary space we say exists in between the imaginary and largely featureless battlefields where the 5 encounters take place. The motives of the monsters are the same. The motives of the PC's are the same. The actual events of play are the same. Moreover, I would argue that this the the most likely result of either wilderness encounter complications or seige complications. According to the setting, anything beseiging the cathedral would also not want the PC's to enter. There isn't a lot of room for negotiating with them (they are hostile demons), or for leveraging the beseigers (you have nothing they want except you dead), and the seige will never succeed since its main purpose isn't to enter into the Cathedral (the magic of which they have no means to break) but to keep you and your kind out. And as I said, evading the 'seige' and evading the encounters in the desert are fundamentally the same. The wandering encounters in the desert are just as equally randomly hostile and randomly desirous to keep you from the Cathedral if they are 100 yards from it or 100 miles.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's not like anyone has offered a coherent non-subjective distinction between the two. So far as I can tell the seige becomes relevant if you interact with it in a meaningful way (otherwise not), and the desert becomes relevant if you interact with it in a meaningful way (otherwise not) and the only difference is you prefer the seige.</p><p></p><p>It would be one thing if you could say, "I have this agenda of play more strongly or less strongly than you do." Or you could claim that you just like the imagery of the siege better. But claiming that there is some objective reason why the seige around the city relates to it, but the environment around the city doesn't make a whole lot of sense given that we can show that the content and action of both is in many cases exactly the same. Yes, I'm sure we could probably think of a way to make the seige more interesting than the suggestions I've hitherto made, but it is equally clear that we could make the journey more interesting as well and using the same techniques.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6109597, member: 4937"] Well, I guess it's possible that a GM could set up and run the wilderness in such a way that it ends up having no bearing on the PC's goals, and all their attempts to interact with or leverage it in pursuit of their goals come to naught. But I personally don't see why a GM would do that. Let's say I roll 5 wandering encounters from the wilderness chart. Then, instead of coloring them as being encounters in the desert, I have the group beseiging the Cathedral of the original example (really, there is no city). Further, I note that the natives have a strong reason for not wanting a non-native to enter the Cathedral which is relevant to setting and true to the scenario. I then run each of the wandering encounters colored as battling through to the Cathedral, which doesn't even require much GM force using 4e and its encounter powers. Now, is this strong scene framing, or weak scene framing? The only difference between this and the original scenario is the amount of imaginary space we say exists in between the imaginary and largely featureless battlefields where the 5 encounters take place. The motives of the monsters are the same. The motives of the PC's are the same. The actual events of play are the same. Moreover, I would argue that this the the most likely result of either wilderness encounter complications or seige complications. According to the setting, anything beseiging the cathedral would also not want the PC's to enter. There isn't a lot of room for negotiating with them (they are hostile demons), or for leveraging the beseigers (you have nothing they want except you dead), and the seige will never succeed since its main purpose isn't to enter into the Cathedral (the magic of which they have no means to break) but to keep you and your kind out. And as I said, evading the 'seige' and evading the encounters in the desert are fundamentally the same. The wandering encounters in the desert are just as equally randomly hostile and randomly desirous to keep you from the Cathedral if they are 100 yards from it or 100 miles. It's not like anyone has offered a coherent non-subjective distinction between the two. So far as I can tell the seige becomes relevant if you interact with it in a meaningful way (otherwise not), and the desert becomes relevant if you interact with it in a meaningful way (otherwise not) and the only difference is you prefer the seige. It would be one thing if you could say, "I have this agenda of play more strongly or less strongly than you do." Or you could claim that you just like the imagery of the siege better. But claiming that there is some objective reason why the seige around the city relates to it, but the environment around the city doesn't make a whole lot of sense given that we can show that the content and action of both is in many cases exactly the same. Yes, I'm sure we could probably think of a way to make the seige more interesting than the suggestions I've hitherto made, but it is equally clear that we could make the journey more interesting as well and using the same techniques. [/QUOTE]
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