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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6112016" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>Now this I can comment on as there is enough here to take in and consider the implications on any game. Explicit, coordinated playstyle preferences and social contract can overcome the issue it creates but the issue is created nonetheless.</p><p></p><p>There was a thread a bit ago about how to deal with the mechanical "issues" and accompanying genre trope of "stealth ganking" of sentries/guards in 4e. Balesir and myself (and I think Obryn?) were ruminating on our various means. One idea was to "minionize" sentries/guards on successful Stealth checks. However, my issue with this approach is that it subverts PC build choices for Strikers generally and Lurker-based Strikers specifically. If you spend PC build resources (perhaps a considerable number) to attain considerable stealth-triggered nova capacity, such that "stealth ganking" is your shtick, this approach produces the same "niche invasion" issues that 3e, Scroll-scrying, Generalist Wizards have regarding Rogues (divinations, charms, alter self, invisibility, knock, etc). However, with that approach, the scope is even greater as suddenly, your niche is invaded by everyone who can pass a stealth check and "press an attack button" and worse still, you've spent build resources and invested in a thematic archetype that has now been rendered obsolete.</p><p></p><p>The same thing happens with any PC build resource that you've invested in (whether it be a Ranger Favored Enemy that never manifests in play [due to lack of coordination or gratuitous, antagonistic GMing], or a Mariner Theme in a game that never makes it to a coast/body of water, or a Distinction/Aspect/Belief that is never tested or given content through which it can propagate your ethos/archetype, provide mechanical benefit and impose on the narrative, or Peerless Exploration/Teleport/Phantom Steed/any "Queue Transition Scene" ability that is irrelevant because "Queue Transition Scene" is a button that anyone at the table can press without investment of PC build resources.</p><p></p><p>Nullification of PC build (and thematic archetype) utility and significance and "niche invasion" is problematic. If the GM or group is going to subvert the system/rules and the invested PC build resources that interface with them and facilitate archetype, then the proliferating issues would have to be addressed at the technique/social accord level; eg, don't play a lurker-focused striker (don't invest in Queue Transition Scene abilities) because "stealth ganking" (Queue Transition Scene) is a universal button that anyone can push.</p><p></p><p>The more prolific the ability and the more embedded it is in the fundamental design framework of the system, the more problematic it will be. Queue Transition Scene button for everyone isn't much of an issue in 4e because its primarily a scene based game with an extremely remote number of resources centered around that. 3e? Not so much. Well, 3e with no Wizards, Sorcerers, Druids, Clerics would work out ok.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 6112016, member: 6696971"] Now this I can comment on as there is enough here to take in and consider the implications on any game. Explicit, coordinated playstyle preferences and social contract can overcome the issue it creates but the issue is created nonetheless. There was a thread a bit ago about how to deal with the mechanical "issues" and accompanying genre trope of "stealth ganking" of sentries/guards in 4e. Balesir and myself (and I think Obryn?) were ruminating on our various means. One idea was to "minionize" sentries/guards on successful Stealth checks. However, my issue with this approach is that it subverts PC build choices for Strikers generally and Lurker-based Strikers specifically. If you spend PC build resources (perhaps a considerable number) to attain considerable stealth-triggered nova capacity, such that "stealth ganking" is your shtick, this approach produces the same "niche invasion" issues that 3e, Scroll-scrying, Generalist Wizards have regarding Rogues (divinations, charms, alter self, invisibility, knock, etc). However, with that approach, the scope is even greater as suddenly, your niche is invaded by everyone who can pass a stealth check and "press an attack button" and worse still, you've spent build resources and invested in a thematic archetype that has now been rendered obsolete. The same thing happens with any PC build resource that you've invested in (whether it be a Ranger Favored Enemy that never manifests in play [due to lack of coordination or gratuitous, antagonistic GMing], or a Mariner Theme in a game that never makes it to a coast/body of water, or a Distinction/Aspect/Belief that is never tested or given content through which it can propagate your ethos/archetype, provide mechanical benefit and impose on the narrative, or Peerless Exploration/Teleport/Phantom Steed/any "Queue Transition Scene" ability that is irrelevant because "Queue Transition Scene" is a button that anyone at the table can press without investment of PC build resources. Nullification of PC build (and thematic archetype) utility and significance and "niche invasion" is problematic. If the GM or group is going to subvert the system/rules and the invested PC build resources that interface with them and facilitate archetype, then the proliferating issues would have to be addressed at the technique/social accord level; eg, don't play a lurker-focused striker (don't invest in Queue Transition Scene abilities) because "stealth ganking" (Queue Transition Scene) is a universal button that anyone can push. The more prolific the ability and the more embedded it is in the fundamental design framework of the system, the more problematic it will be. Queue Transition Scene button for everyone isn't much of an issue in 4e because its primarily a scene based game with an extremely remote number of resources centered around that. 3e? Not so much. Well, 3e with no Wizards, Sorcerers, Druids, Clerics would work out ok. [/QUOTE]
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