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Message: <blockquote data-quote="chaochou" data-source="post: 6112229" data-attributes="member: 99817">No, you didn't. You set up a scene where one or more NPC characters think the belief is ridiculous. Unless you're now trying to say that in order to do that the person GMing has to believe it as well.Which really is the most absurd and basic misrepresentation of roleplaying I've ever seen. One has to believe what a character believes? Okay, my peasant PC has an NPC ally who fervently believes I'm the true king. What does the GM now believe when playing that NPC? He has to change to believing I'm king?The 'doing it wrong' is not the scene. The scene if freakin' awesome. What's wrong is the need for the GM to have pre-determined the outcome of my kingship. It's totally unnecessary for the GM to decide this, unless, of course, one is unable to even envisage a game which lacks GM authority exercised in a dictatorial manner.Not only that, but remember what your claim was?So, not only have you constructed an example using an alien methodology, you've also managed to construct an example which totally contradicts the assertion you were trying to support.The result of which is BW which looks like this:PC: I'm the true king of this landGM: No you're notPlayer: What gives you the right to say that? Say yes or roll the dice, man.GM: No you're wrong, you're a deluded peasant, I'm not playing this game, mine does this so much better.Here's how mine works:PC: I'm the true king of this landGM: Great, let's find outNPCs: Begone, deranged peasant fool!Player: Bring it on.Of course, some people outright reject the basic, fundamental implication of Say Yes or Roll the Dice. They may have spent years leading the players by the nose, or being lead. Here be the adventure! Defeat the giants, defeat the demon controlling the town, overcome the secret society, rescue the princess... But one critical component to the game is that everyone pretends that there's no leading, no scripting, no pre-determination.Now it's a brilliant playstyle. I've done it myself, countless times as both player and GM and had huge amounts of fun. I enjoyed a brilliant game of Conspiracy X like this over Christmas. Wow.But buying into the illusion doesn't make it anything other than an illusion. However, it does prompt people to make silly claims about Burning Wheel, and games of its ilk, not doing anything different. It's a perception problem based on too much buy-in to the illusion of choice where there is none. A distorting mirror, if you like.My BW game is: Am I the king? Your BW game is: You're not king, but must continue to pretend you are. You must maintain the illusion of possibilities, even where there are none. My Morte D'arthur to your Don Quixote, indeed.Pointing out the illusion to someone in love with it doesn't make it false. It's worse than false. It's heresy. This can make people wedded to it deeply uncomfortable, evasive, angry, resentful even. But you don't strike me like that, with your keyboard warrior threats to take the discussion to an unmoderated forum and 'get my weapons out'. As I said, you're a hoot!Feel free to have the last word. I knew this was futile from the outset, and yet I've been sucked into wasting time on it.Have fun, and happy gaming with whatever style suits. It's all good, dude.</blockquote>

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