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Message: <blockquote data-quote="N'raac" data-source="post: 6120088" data-attributes="member: 6681948">Well, let's explore this.We've played out the trip through the desert.  Against the wishes of one player, who complained all the way about these random encounters - over the course of 2 weeks of ingame time, 40+encounters with an assortment of powerful, dangerous desert beasts.  We got to the city - barely alive -  but we got there.Now, let's resupply.  OK, 5 characters, plus mounts and animal companions - need to replenish two weeks of provisions.  No problem, just scratch the gold off, lots of provisions here in this wood-framed general store.  And let's get longspears - heck, lets get two each just in case - a lot of those desert beasts loved to charge!  No sweat, the weaponsmith has a huge wooden shop stacked to the rafters with weapons of all shapes and sizes.  Oh, wait, I want to upgrade to Plate Mail.  Check with the armorsmith in that two story wooden shop.  "Let me check, my friend - I fear we may have a shortage in your size."  "Oh, it is as I feared, I am very short of full plate armor in Short Fat Dwarf size - I have only four suits that will fit you perfectly!  We must hope one is in a style pleasing to you!"As we exit the marketplace, there seems to be something of a stir.  What's this? A huge military force has surrounded the city!Now, what I've been hearing for what, 75 pages, is that the siege is good because we can leverage it.  But I've also been told not to kick the scenery or it will fall over.  Now, what's better:"Oh a siege - we will have to negotiate with its leaders"?  Maybe those leaders aren't open to any negotiations - after all, this is the same sucky GM who made us trudge through that desert an even added some "role play" with his precious NPC rather than a simple gold for plate mail adjustment to the character sheet, so his siege likely sucks as well.But shouldn't a player be able to work out that: - despite having no local supply, the city has tons of food and provisions; - despite having no local supply, there are wooden buildings everywhere, along with wooden weapons, etc. - despite having no local supply, metals are also plentiful - four suits of Short Fat Dwarf size Plate Armor off the rack? - it can't be getting shipped in over the desert - we barely made it through all those desert encounters!So can we find out how it is that they can easily import all this stuff, circumventing the desert beasts, and use that to leverage as a tool to better deal with the siege?  And if not, why not?  Where did my player empowerment go?But having added that, is it now open to the players leveraging it?  "A mad wizard created it" is the GM equivalent of "my PC is an orphaned loner" - no hooks, nothing that can be leveraged.  A dungeon that has a history, a backstory and has been designed consistent with that enables the players to make an educated guess about what should be down here (just like expecting a suitably large city will have certain resources - maybe it won't, but most will).  A "mad wizard" dungeon exists for the sole purpose of confounding the PC's/players and has no such educated guess/leveraging capacity.  What was that inverted ziggurat, or boiling bubble, designed for?  Who cares - it's a PC maze.  And that can be fun too -  but when every game features the "mad wizard dungeon with enemies who exist for the sole purpose of killing PC's", there's not a lot there for the PC's to leverage.  And I find it a bit strange that the Mad Wizard Dungeon is a perfectly acceptable trope, but a desert encounter is unacceptable because I either can't leverage it, it's not relevant or it's completely and totally contrived that there should be an encounter in the desert surrounding the city that is actually RELEVANT to the only significant settlement in the region.  But "a mad wizard built it hundreds of years ago, and no one since has been able to get past its sealed entrance" is not at all contrived.Sure.See, I would not have a ton of difficulty with this.  But as I compare it with comments made over a hundred or so pages in this thread, it seems inconsistent with many of the claims made earlier.I could certainly see a player stating that "I know liches have phylacterys, and I do not want to face this thing again - we need to find its phylactery".  That PC has no chance of accomplishing his goal, at least not immediately as he wishes, since no one knows where the phylactery is, GM included.  Now, maybe that lich killed a PC and we want revenge.  So we start casting divination spells to find that phylactery.  Story Now!  We want that phylactery and we want it NOW!  We are not interested in playing out ANYTHING ELSE until we have dealt with that phylactery.  STORY NOW!!  Or is this somehow different and, if so, why is this an exception to the standard of player goals driving the scenes? Oh, but you just want to "put more pressure on the players" - sure, we'll just assume whatever result is the worst possible case for the PC's.  After all, that's what GM's do!But you grabbed Kas right off the shelf with some pre-existing history.  If the PC's had suggested he join them in a quest to return Vecna to his heights of power, would he possibly be good with that "to keep the game moving and give the players something interesting to engage with in the situation", or would his history dictate that this is simply not an option?  Alternatively, would a payer who cleverly incorporates Kas' enmity with Vecna into the negotiations gain no advantage, or would he be able to leverage the established personality of the NPC?Until you want a shot of the Empire State Building and the Statue of Liberty, rather than the CN Tower.So why did anyone make West Side Story?  Not because "it's Romeo and Juliet", but because "it's like Romeo and Juliet, but set in 50's/60's New York".  It is commonly referred to as "inspired by", rather than being, Romeo and Juliet.  Similarities and differences exist (Juliet doesn't walk off the stage at the end of Romeo an Juliet, for example).  Neither Tony nor Maria commit suicide.  The intersection of a same/very similar plot with similar characters and a different setting creates a work that has endured for well over 50 years from the original Broadway production.</blockquote>

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