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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6120269" data-attributes="member: 4937">No, I think we disagree on the detail of the summation of the story which constitutes plot.  You seem to want a definition of "plot" that is very high level indeed.  That is, you seem to think that "Man Versus Society" or only slightly more refined "Overthrow Tyranny" is a sufficient description to be a plot.   So, while you might be happy with "Man Versus Nature" as the 'plot' of Jack London's, "To Build a Fire", I would see the plot as, "A man is freezing in the cold of an artic wilderness, and to survive the night he must build a fire with limited resources under harsh conditions."  And for me, even that one sentence description suffices only because the story is so simple.  The plot of 'The Lord of the Rings' would require at least a half-dozen sentences, dealing with largely separate stories of its two main protagonists 'Frodo' and 'Aragorn' and the main challenges they are faced with over the course of the story.  It would not be enough to say the plot is, "Overthrow Tyranny" or even "Frodo has to get rid of a ring." because those statements are radically disconnected from essential elements of the story and connected to unessential elements (the ringness of the anti-quest item).   We know nothing about the shape of the story from that statement of plot.  There might be many stories with the same plot, the basic plot of 'To Build a Fire' doesn't give the details of the wilderness, the resources, the challenges, or even whether the man lives or dies or maybe even more importantly how we are meant to view the whole affair - comic, tragic, heroic, cautionary, sympatheticly, etc.   But the plot does tell us something about the story, which is why in casual usage when someone says, "What is the plot of the movie?", you know to say something about the setting and to begin telling the story in outline.Ok, I agree that they can't be used interchangably.   But what really confused me is when you defined plot as 'a series of events' in one sentence, then asserted it wasn't 'a series of events' in another sentence, and finally went on to say that 'Overcoming Tyranny' is a plot (when clearly, 'Over coming tyranny' isn't a series of events).Right.  And 'Resisting Tyranny' isn't an outline.  No, but setting does.  And plot, being an outline of events, requires specific elements before that outline makes sense.  The Star Wars story requires a young lost heir (Luke), a great and secret power (The Force), a Dark Lord (The Emperor), a Wizard mentor who can teach the secret power (Obiwan), and to a lesser extent various other things I mention because the plot of the trilogy - that is the outline of the story - will mention all of these things.  Now the plot might loosely serve for a retelling of Theseus or of Star Wars, and the heir may or may not succumb to tempation (its a Greek Tragedy rather than a Fairy Tale) but in general I see the plot as being more detailed than you are here trying to make it.I think you are confused.  The plot doesn't require Luke, but it does require The Lost Heir.  The plot doesn't require The Emporer, but it does require The Dark Lord.  The central plot points here that you mention are going to be about this:"A Dark Lord rules the land unjustly.  The Lost Heir is drawn into The Conflict, when he hears the cries of The Princess.  He begins his Heroes Journey, and is brought into confidence by The Wizard - who tells him of his inheritance and begins to train him in the ways of The Magic.  The Wizard is slain by The Black Knight, a servant of The Dark Lord.  The Lost Heir avenges himself on the Dark Knight, and then slays The Dragon - thererby saving the Princess and Her People.   But the Dark Knight is not slain, and the The Dark Lord orders him to slay The Lost Heir.  The hero enters into The Underworld, and there his tempted by The Dark Lord who reveals that he is The Lost Heir's father...."  And so forth.  Of course the full story has many details and small twists I've left out.   And of course, while we know what those plot points mean, I've deliberately left them vague to show that in outline the plot is actually very broad.No, I'm sorry but while learning 'magic' is not part of the plot, learning 'The Magic' whether it is how to take control of computers, who to pull of a con, how to fight, etc. is ALWAYS a part of this plot and is essential to it.   Learning 'The Magic' is an essential plot point in the sort of bildungsroman.   Daniel-San has to learn 'The Magic' from Mr. Miyagi.  A setting which doesn't have 'The Magic' can't tell this story, which means that you need a certain sort of heroic romanticism in your setting - no matter how gritty your setting might be.That's some tuna fish sandwich.   I would suggest that if you filled in 'The Magic' in the story above with 'making tuna fish sandwichs', you'd have a very particular sort of story.  A cute one no doubt, but a particular one.   However, you can't fill in 'The Magic' in the story with 'ordindary tuna fish sandwich'.   It has to be extraordinary tuna fish sandwiches.</blockquote>

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