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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hawken" data-source="post: 4249375" data-attributes="member: 23619">Who said anything about making them immune, and where do you get what designers are trying to do unless you're one of them? So, instead, the designers are throwing in powers that you can't easily justify or explain that cannot miss. Yeah, that's much better!Just like players get a chance to avoid something (AC or saves), monsters should get a chance to avoid the player's stuff. This is one of the video-gamey things about this edition. Press a button and boom, the enemy is bitch-slapped. Automatic. No chance to escape, evade or resist. Kind of like those button slapping combos on Mortal Kombat and Tekken. The concept is ok, maybe, but the execution is just wrong. Paladin at the back marks someone. So, the monster has to run a gauntlet of the paladins enemies to keep from getting a divine boot to the head or he ignores the mark, gets swamped by the paladin's allies and then gets the divine boot to the head. That just doesn't seem right in any way.  That's just stupid for much the reasons above. Divine Challenge isn't really a challenge because it basically forces compliance (or lays on the pain). Its more accurately Divine Threat to Kick You in Your Jimmy. And the Fighter's mark is also dubious. How is his swing going to throw a Dragon or an ooze off-balance? Fighting some creature that can take the hit and not even blink is going to be hard to justify a -2 penalty because the fighter swings a particular way or kicks a target in the shin or whatever.  Yeah, that cleave rule is one of the things that is turning me away from 4E. Fighter: I aim at the rock on the ground next to the BBEG (with 45 AC).DM: **Rolls** You hit the rock for 10hp. Fighter: Great! And my Cleave lets me hit BBEG without rolling!So, what? Does acid arrow become an area effect now? And I think Evasion would still negate that? Or at least, I'd think it would, otherwise, what's the point of Evasion? Again, what's this big deal all of a sudden about someone being immune to a class skill being a bad thing. Without a magic weapon (or whatever) a golem is immune to a fighter's ability to kick its butt. Plenty of Undead are immune to a Cleric or Paladin's ability to Turn or at least highly resistant. Creatures with spell resistance are immune to a good portion of a wizard's class ability (to cast spells). Someone with magical boots is immune to a Ranger's ability to Track them. Someone with Uncanny Dodge is immune to Sneak Attack.  Someone who is deaf is immune to a bard's suggestion. There are plenty of examples.And maybe the wizard or BBEG doesn't take damage from Lance of Faith if it doesn't hit them or their save is high enough. Something that doesn't come into play with things like Cleave, or marking.</blockquote>

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