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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Grognerd" data-source="post: 7488697" data-attributes="member: 6968425">I'm well aware of all of this. But that doesn't change my point at all. The question is not about leveling, or even about scale. It is about survivability. And the reality is that in 1e first level characters were exceedingly more fragile than first level 5e characters are. Even accepting the differences in the game systems, that does not change. So my point that zero level adventures were viable in 1e is absolutely valid to the current discussion. If fragile 1e characters could go through a zero level adventure, then the far more robust 5e characters could do the same.You keep mentioning this point. yes, the characters are "apprentice adventurers". However, you seem to be taking this to indicate that the characters are completely ignorant as to the aspects of their class. That is not the case, nor is that the way it is presented as written, and it is certainly not consistent with what most of us who have been playing D & D for decades would say. A first-level "apprentice" character is still a trained individual, with competency. The idea of them moving beyond an apprentice stage at higher levels suggests an independence and a coming into their own, rather than them finally becoming simply reasonably confident. To use an analogy, one might look at Star Wars episode 1. Obi-Wan Kenobi is a mere Padawan since he had not taken his trials; however, if you look at his progress in the movie he is obviously competent in his trade despite being a "mere" apprentice.Now this I can completely agree with. I for one greatly appreciate the increased survivability, durability, and competency of a first level 5e character. That said, if the group desires a zero level game, it is a completely viable endeavor in 5e. That has been my only point the entire time. The constant claims that 5e characters are too weak or incompetent to have zero level adventures, simply doesn't bear up.Also, I feel it should be said, that I am not suggesting you have said or hinted at all of these things. As noted in my original post on this thread, I've seen others do the same. I'm just elaborating on it here, and responded to your post since it was the first in this thread to go in this direction.</blockquote>

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