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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Skyscraper" data-source="post: 5630349" data-attributes="member: 48518">Interesting topic here, and I like what many posters have said up to now (and agree with some of it).One thing I wish to mention on hero vs zero, which is somewhat related to the present topic:In 4E, the game system presents a power framework for opponents that is relative to the PCs, and in this framework the PCs appear powerful relative to ordinary townsfolk. In prior D&D versions, the power framework was absolute and the players were closer to ordinary townsfolk when they started.I know some people disagree with this basic assessment, but I can't explain a 1-HP level 23 minion devil except when considering that it has 1 hit point against PCs of the same level as the PCs, or just about. In other words, the power of monsters is not an absolute value, it is a power level provided for use with PCs that have approximately the same level as the monster (as stated in the DMG).With that in mind, I'll look at a level 1 PC, since this is the starting point for a PC we're talking about in this thread. Is he a mook, or is he a hero? Well, it's all a question of DM decisions and setting really, because if the DM populates his world with level 5 eiltes as basic farmers, the PCs will be mooks. But assuming that level 1 minions exist galore, I think the level 1 PC is quite the hero because your ordinary townsfolk or farmer is likely to be a level 1 minion. Thus, most people he crosses on the road is a level 1 minion compared to him, which makes him the hero.Thus the difference in power in 4E between a level 1 PC who has 25 HPs and a multitue of attacks and a level 1 minion (the lowest stat provided in any monster reference - yes you can decide that some opponents are even weaker if you wish) is much greater than the difference in power in 3E or in 1E between a level 1 PC and level 0 opponents or commoners or such people statted with the lowest power stats in the books. So 4E in my mind clearly suggests that the PCs are heroes much above the power level of ordinary townsfolk, moreso than 1E or 3E.I understand that some opponents such as Irontooth can pause a great challenge to 4E characters and honestly I don't see a significant different in death probabilities in the games I play or where I DM in 4E compared to prior editions, because the DM chooses to pit challenging opponents agains the PCs; so yeah, 4E can be as deadly as prior versions. But it's clear to me that 4E characters are meant to be more powerful compared to ordinary townsfolk, than prior edition characters. It's just that the opponents can also be tougher.</blockquote>

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