Zombie dire rats - filth fever?

[kenobi65]

So, I'm using the zombie template rules in the MM to create zombie dire rats.

Dire rats have an extraordinary special attack: disease (filth fever).

The rules on zombies say:

A zombie creature retains none of the base creature's special attacks.

But, in the next paragraph it says:

It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks.

My gut tells me that zombie dire rats wouldn't still have filth fever, but I wanted a second (and third, and fourth) opinion.

Edit: another point against Filth Fever: the save is Con-based, and undead have no Con score.

 

[Infiniti2000]

My gut tells me that zombie dire rats wouldn't still have filth fever, but I wanted a second (and third, and fourth) opinion.

I agree. The zombie dire rats do not get the disease Special Attack. It's not listed under Special Qualities. However, I would still give them the special attack, possibly even with Ability Focus.

As for no Con, perhaps charisma-based? Hmm....

 

[Bad Paper]

I would let them keep the Filth Fever but keep it tied to Con score (that is, remove the Con modifier to DC entirely, dropping the DC to 10). Thus, the rats are still "dirty," but the filth has a hard time staying viable, since undead aren't exactly the best petri dishes for growing mundane disease.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Thus, the rats are still "dirty," but the filth has a hard time staying viable, since undead aren't exactly the best petri dishes for growing mundane disease.

Decaying flesh isn't a good petri dish for bacteria? I'd think it would be a great source.

 

[Sejs]

My gut tells me that zombie dire rats wouldn't still have filth fever, but I wanted a second (and third, and fourth) opinion.

Edit: another point against Filth Fever: the save is Con-based, and undead have no Con score.

Actually, I disagree. Frankly, all zombies should have a chance to give you filth fever, and especially zombie dire rats. Filth fever is spread by filthy conditions and creatures that live in said conditions. Unless those zombies have been particularly well preserved .. as in throughly embalmed .. then they are themselves walking filthy conditions. Rotting corpses fit the bill almost by definition.

As for the save DC? *shrug* A non-stat has a modifier of +/- 0, so leave it at 10 + 1/2 the creatures HD. So it'd land somewhere around dc 11 or 12. Sounds fine to me.

If you're being chewed up by the rotting dead of a disease-bearing species you should risk getting an infection. Rats shouldn't become cleaner by being turned into zombies.

 

[lukelightning]

Decaying flesh isn't a good petri dish for bacteria? I'd think it would be a great source.

Not all diseases can stay viable in a deceased body.

Plus who knows how disease works in a D&D world; it is entirely possible disease is caused by "vile humours" or "negative essences" rather than bacteria and viruses... viri... virusesses.... whatever.

I have no problem giving zombies filth fever, or making up a new disease, but then I'd bump up the CR, since disease is a big pain for PCs.

 

[frankthedm]

Actually, I disagree. Frankly, all zombies should have a chance to give you filth fever, and especially zombie dire rats. Filth fever is spread by filthy conditions and creatures that live in said conditions. Unless those zombies have been particularly well preserved .. as in throughly embalmed .. then they are themselves walking filthy conditions. Rotting corpses fit the bill almost by definition.

Your reasoning is sound, though most zombies use blunt slams, which are not the best vector for most diseases.

As for the save DC? *shrug* A non-stat has a modifier of +/- 0, so leave it at 10 + 1/2 the creatures HD. So it'd land somewhere around dc 11 or 12. Sounds fine to me.

I'd say +2 circumstance bonus to the DC.

 

[lukelightning]

Don't forget you have to apply the zombie template to the bacteria as well. The germs can only make a move or a standard action...can only slam your blood cells... get turned by your clericytes...

 

[kenobi65]

Thanks for the thoughts, folks.

My take on all this:

By the book, no, they shouldn't have the disease attack, because the rules for the zombie template specifically disallow it.

Qualitatively, there's some good reasons why they should still have it.

 

[pawsplay]

Filth fever isn't an improvement on a melee attack, IMHO. It's just a special ability.