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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Merlin the Tuna" data-source="post: 3844649" data-attributes="member: 55638">Both are in the SRD, and they don't have the same hit dice.  Even with that, I wouldn't say they're totally different zombies.Size and Type: Same for both creatures.Hit Dice: The wyvern's got 13 HP on the minotaur thanks to his 2 extra HD.Speed: The Minotaur moves 30 ft per round, the Wyvern moves 20 feet per round, because actually trying to use Clumsy flight in battle isn't worth the trouble.Armor Class: The Wyvern has 4 more natural armor than the Minotaur.Attacks: Slam or gore at +10 for 1d8+5 for the Minotaur, Slam at +11 for 2d6+7 from the Wyvern.  (Note that this damage appears to be incorrect -- it should be 1d8+5, just like the Minotaur's, going by the template's provided information.  Hurrah for biffed stat blocks in core.)  The Minotaur also has a greataxe listed, but eh, zombies with weapons?  Lamesauce incarnate.  The Minotaur also has 5 feet more reach.Special Attacks: None for both.Special Qualities: Exactly the same for both.Saves: The Wyvern has +1 to its base Will save.Abilities: Strength is 21 for both creatures, Dex is 10 for the Wyvern and 8 for the Minotaur.  The other 4 are the same for both.Skills: None for both.Feats: Just Toughness for both.Alignment: Same for both creatures.So the Wyvern has a bit more HP, a bit more AC (unless you do, for some bizarre reason, go the equipment route for the Minotaur, in which case the ACs end up about the same), hits slightly more often for slightly more damage (maybe), has slightly better saves, and has one ability with a modifier one higher.  It can fly in story mode, but it has slightly less reach and moves slightly slower in battle.That to me does not say "totally different zombies."  Rather it says "Zombie advanced 2 hit dice past other zombie," especially because the key remaining difference between the two -- flight -- can't actually be used in battle because of the ludicrous hassle involved.  It further illustrates the point I made in the first place -- we took two completely different monsters, applied the template, and ended up with Mindless Bruiser 1 and Mindless Bruiser 2.  Had I actually had to build these rather than pull the stat blocks from the SRD, I'd have been kicking myself in the teeth by the middle of the Wyvern's.  It's really not worth the time, especially for a mook.Oh, and Mouse, remember that we know Death Knight is a template -- it's a significantly more PC-type monster, but it at least tells us that templates aren't getting booted entirely.</blockquote>

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