Artifact and ECL rules question

[Belzamus]

Okay, I have both the Bestiary I and Ascension and I've read them both cover to cover several times. I don't know if I somehow missed this, but,

let's say I'm making a 60 HD Intermediate Deity just flat out of the Ascension rules, outsider HD to avoid complications.

My ECL is apparently either 120 (with equipment) or 100 (without equipment)

Now, when it says without equipment, that literally means NO ITEMS, from what I understand. Therefore, am I to extrapolate that this deity has ECL 20 in equipment? Or, in other words, the equivelent of 20 Divine Abilities, a +40 to all stats, 4 +6 Weapons, or the like?

I think I've missed a big point here since the artifiact section mentions nothing like that. Instead it has those formulas for compute maximum bonus for specific kinds of items.

However, unless I'm missing something, there is nowhere which it explains how many different effects are allowed on one item.

For some reason I've come up with the notion that every Immortal is ENTITLED to 4 artifacts, each of equivelant value of a number of divine abilities = to their divine rank.

Upper Krust told me in an email that a by-the-books Time Lord has a possible 4 Omnific Abilities through its items. Looking at the ECL (1666 v. 2000) its item apparently are worth 334 levels. However, an Omnific is 200 Divine Abilities which is, accoridng to the "Divinity Template Breakdown" on p. 27 of Ascension, worth 200 levles. So which is it, 334 or 800 ECL for its items?

I think I'm just way off base here, and I'd really appreciate it if U_K or someone else who understands this could either lay it out clearly here for me or direct me to where I can find the answer myself.

Thanks a lot.

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Belzamus mate!

Originally Posted by Belzamus

Okay, I have both the Bestiary I and Ascension and I've read them both cover to cover several times. I don't know if I somehow missed this, but,

let's say I'm making a 60 HD Intermediate Deity just flat out of the Ascension rules, outsider HD to avoid complications.

My ECL is apparently either 120 (with equipment) or 100 (without equipment)

Now, when it says without equipment, that literally means NO ITEMS, from what I understand. Therefore, am I to extrapolate that this deity has ECL 20 in equipment? Or, in other words, the equivelent of 20 Divine Abilities, a +40 to all stats, 4 +6 Weapons, or the like?

Sort of. From my experience, equipment (in 3E) is roughly worth about one third a characters ECL/CR. However, this does vary to a degree dependant upon classes.

Therefore to maintain that balance, any template should (or rather could - if we have the option of both) add that same amount.

Now lets go back to that example.

If we have a 60th-level Character (before we apply the Intermediate Deity Template), then that character would technically already have 60-levels worth of equipment making up about 1/3 of their ECL/CR.

So when we add the template, that takes us up to ECL 120. Therefore that character should have 120th-level equipment (or rather equipment should be 1/3 of their total ECL which would be 80 without any equipment).

I think I've missed a big point here since the artifiact section mentions nothing like that. Instead it has those formulas for compute maximum bonus for specific kinds of items.

When you know the Wealth level (ie. 120 levels of wealth), then you use the artifact rules in the book to determine the value of each individual item (one of four that will make up the immortal's equipment).

However, unless I'm missing something, there is nowhere which it explains how many different effects are allowed on one item.

There is no limit. Simply the GP limit of the item.

I do often suggest that all armour, shields and weapons have an enhancement bonus equal to or greater than the total sum of the special powers total market modifiers.

For some reason I've come up with the notion that every Immortal is ENTITLED to 4 artifacts, each of equivelant value of a number of divine abilities = to their divine rank.

Thats correct. Although its a simplification of the math.

The way the math works if ECL is 120 then that means you have roughly equipment worth 40 ECL. The most powerful a single artifact can be is 1/4 of your wealth total. Therefore each artifact will be worth 10 ECL. Given that one Divine Ability is +1 ECL then it becomes easy to swop.

I generally use the quick method of simply treating each artifact as equal to a number of divine abilities equal to your Divine Rank. That gives a good average and means you don't have to keep chopping and changing them every few ECL, just every change in Divine Status, which is more of a paradigm shift.

Upper Krust told me in an email that a by-the-books Time Lord has a possible 4 Omnific Abilities through its items. Looking at the ECL (1666 v. 2000) its item apparently are worth 334 levels. However, an Omnific is 200 Divine Abilities which is, accoridng to the "Divinity Template Breakdown" on p. 27 of Ascension, worth 200 levles. So which is it, 334 or 800 ECL for its items?

Both. I think what I meant to specify was that the Time Lord Template would add approx. 4 Omnific Abilities worth of Artifacts.

Remember that the Time Lord would already have 999 Levels worth of equipment from its own class levels and/or hit dice.

I think I'm just way off base here, and I'd really appreciate it if U_K or someone else who understands this could either lay it out clearly here for me or direct me to where I can find the answer myself.

Hope the above helps, if not I'm happy to go over it in more detail for you (or anyone else).

Thanks a lot.

Thats why I'm here.

[Belzamus]

I think that pretty much clears it up. It makes a whole lot more sense now.

Thanks a ton, U_K.

[Belzamus]

I had another question, U_K, if you don't mind answering. (Figured I'd ask it here rather than making a whole new thread)

Is it just me, or do casters get absolutely devalued in Ascension? I mean, once Alter Reality starts getting thrown around it seems like they lose their main advantage. Plus, with the way weapon damage escalates out of control, it just seems like there's no way for a wizard immortal to keep up. On the surface it looks like a non-spellcasting immortal couldn't use Automatic Metamagic Capacity, but Nescience waives the prereqs, so...

For my second question, can a fighter (or any other class, really) use his bonus feats to trade in for divine ability slots? Or is he forced to start stacking epic feats once he runs out of good feats to take?

Edit-- Also, another mark against Immortal Spellcasters, their Caster Level. With the hefty LA, its going to be just above half their Character Level, even with the Divine Bonus.

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Belzamus matey!

Originally Posted by Belzamus

I had another question, U_K, if you don't mind answering. (Figured I'd ask it here rather than making a whole new thread)

Fire away!

Is it just me, or do casters get absolutely devalued in Ascension? I mean, once Alter Reality starts getting thrown around it seems like they lose their main advantage. Plus, with the way weapon damage escalates out of control, it just seems like there's no way for a wizard immortal to keep up. On the surface it looks like a non-spellcasting immortal couldn't use Automatic Metamagic Capacity, but Nescience waives the prereqs, so...

Well technically things like ddq (double-double=quodruple) metamagic and dimensional magic were meant to redress that imbalance. Unfortunately I haven't really got round to explaining it yet. Hopefully there'll be enough of it in Godsend.

For my second question, can a fighter (or any other class, really) use his bonus feats to trade in for divine ability slots? Or is he forced to start stacking epic feats once he runs out of good feats to take?

In the powers chapter, it states that you can gain esoteric powers up to one category higher than you normally could. So a mortal epic fighter could gain divine abilities by expending enough feat slots. Though its suggested that esoteric powers are gained after an adventure (you have to complete a certain adventure/quest before you can obtain them).

Edit-- Also, another mark against Immortal Spellcasters, their Caster Level. With the hefty LA, its going to be just above half their Character Level, even with the Divine Bonus.

Personally I think Heighten Spell would work here.

[Belzamus]

Actually, I take back saying that Immortal spellcasters are weak. I just realized that 6 Automatic Metamagic Capacity feats allow them to Persist every spell with a duration, making ALL of their buff spells last all day.