Artifact and ECL rules question

[Belzamus]

Okay, I have both the Bestiary I and Ascension and I've read them both cover to cover several times. I don't know if I somehow missed this, but,

let's say I'm making a 60 HD Intermediate Deity just flat out of the Ascension rules, outsider HD to avoid complications.

My ECL is apparently either 120 (with equipment) or 100 (without equipment)

Now, when it says without equipment, that literally means NO ITEMS, from what I understand. Therefore, am I to extrapolate that this deity has ECL 20 in equipment? Or, in other words, the equivelent of 20 Divine Abilities, a +40 to all stats, 4 +6 Weapons, or the like?

I think I've missed a big point here since the artifiact section mentions nothing like that. Instead it has those formulas for compute maximum bonus for specific kinds of items.

However, unless I'm missing something, there is nowhere which it explains how many different effects are allowed on one item.

For some reason I've come up with the notion that every Immortal is ENTITLED to 4 artifacts, each of equivelant value of a number of divine abilities = to their divine rank.

Upper Krust told me in an email that a by-the-books Time Lord has a possible 4 Omnific Abilities through its items. Looking at the ECL (1666 v. 2000) its item apparently are worth 334 levels. However, an Omnific is 200 Divine Abilities which is, accoridng to the "Divinity Template Breakdown" on p. 27 of Ascension, worth 200 levles. So which is it, 334 or 800 ECL for its items?

I think I'm just way off base here, and I'd really appreciate it if U_K or someone else who understands this could either lay it out clearly here for me or direct me to where I can find the answer myself.

Thanks a lot.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Belzamus mate!

Okay, I have both the Bestiary I and Ascension and I've read them both cover to cover several times. I don't know if I somehow missed this, but,

let's say I'm making a 60 HD Intermediate Deity just flat out of the Ascension rules, outsider HD to avoid complications.

My ECL is apparently either 120 (with equipment) or 100 (without equipment)

Now, when it says without equipment, that literally means NO ITEMS, from what I understand. Therefore, am I to extrapolate that this deity has ECL 20 in equipment? Or, in other words, the equivelent of 20 Divine Abilities, a +40 to all stats, 4 +6 Weapons, or the like?

Sort of. From my experience, equipment (in 3E) is roughly worth about one third a characters ECL/CR. However, this does vary to a degree dependant upon classes.

Therefore to maintain that balance, any template should (or rather could - if we have the option of both) add that same amount.

Now lets go back to that example.

If we have a 60th-level Character (before we apply the Intermediate Deity Template), then that character would technically already have 60-levels worth of equipment making up about 1/3 of their ECL/CR.

So when we add the template, that takes us up to ECL 120. Therefore that character should have 120th-level equipment (or rather equipment should be 1/3 of their total ECL which would be 80 without any equipment).

I think I've missed a big point here since the artifiact section mentions nothing like that. Instead it has those formulas for compute maximum bonus for specific kinds of items.

When you know the Wealth level (ie. 120 levels of wealth), then you use the artifact rules in the book to determine the value of each individual item (one of four that will make up the immortal's equipment).

However, unless I'm missing something, there is nowhere which it explains how many different effects are allowed on one item.

There is no limit. Simply the GP limit of the item.

I do often suggest that all armour, shields and weapons have an enhancement bonus equal to or greater than the total sum of the special powers total market modifiers.

For some reason I've come up with the notion that every Immortal is ENTITLED to 4 artifacts, each of equivelant value of a number of divine abilities = to their divine rank.

Thats correct. Although its a simplification of the math.

The way the math works if ECL is 120 then that means you have roughly equipment worth 40 ECL. The most powerful a single artifact can be is 1/4 of your wealth total. Therefore each artifact will be worth 10 ECL. Given that one Divine Ability is +1 ECL then it becomes easy to swop.

I generally use the quick method of simply treating each artifact as equal to a number of divine abilities equal to your Divine Rank. That gives a good average and means you don't have to keep chopping and changing them every few ECL, just every change in Divine Status, which is more of a paradigm shift.

Upper Krust told me in an email that a by-the-books Time Lord has a possible 4 Omnific Abilities through its items. Looking at the ECL (1666 v. 2000) its item apparently are worth 334 levels. However, an Omnific is 200 Divine Abilities which is, accoridng to the "Divinity Template Breakdown" on p. 27 of Ascension, worth 200 levles. So which is it, 334 or 800 ECL for its items?

Both. I think what I meant to specify was that the Time Lord Template would add approx. 4 Omnific Abilities worth of Artifacts.

Remember that the Time Lord would already have 999 Levels worth of equipment from its own class levels and/or hit dice.

I think I'm just way off base here, and I'd really appreciate it if U_K or someone else who understands this could either lay it out clearly here for me or direct me to where I can find the answer myself.

Hope the above helps, if not I'm happy to go over it in more detail for you (or anyone else).

Thanks a lot.

Thats why I'm here.

 

[Belzamus]

I think that pretty much clears it up. It makes a whole lot more sense now.

Thanks a ton, U_K.

 

[Belzamus]

I had another question, U_K, if you don't mind answering. (Figured I'd ask it here rather than making a whole new thread)

Is it just me, or do casters get absolutely devalued in Ascension? I mean, once Alter Reality starts getting thrown around it seems like they lose their main advantage. Plus, with the way weapon damage escalates out of control, it just seems like there's no way for a wizard immortal to keep up. On the surface it looks like a non-spellcasting immortal couldn't use Automatic Metamagic Capacity, but Nescience waives the prereqs, so...

For my second question, can a fighter (or any other class, really) use his bonus feats to trade in for divine ability slots? Or is he forced to start stacking epic feats once he runs out of good feats to take?

Edit-- Also, another mark against Immortal Spellcasters, their Caster Level. With the hefty LA, its going to be just above half their Character Level, even with the Divine Bonus.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Belzamus matey!

I had another question, U_K, if you don't mind answering. (Figured I'd ask it here rather than making a whole new thread)

Fire away!

Is it just me, or do casters get absolutely devalued in Ascension? I mean, once Alter Reality starts getting thrown around it seems like they lose their main advantage. Plus, with the way weapon damage escalates out of control, it just seems like there's no way for a wizard immortal to keep up. On the surface it looks like a non-spellcasting immortal couldn't use Automatic Metamagic Capacity, but Nescience waives the prereqs, so...

Well technically things like ddq (double-double=quodruple) metamagic and dimensional magic were meant to redress that imbalance. Unfortunately I haven't really got round to explaining it yet. Hopefully there'll be enough of it in Godsend.

For my second question, can a fighter (or any other class, really) use his bonus feats to trade in for divine ability slots? Or is he forced to start stacking epic feats once he runs out of good feats to take?

In the powers chapter, it states that you can gain esoteric powers up to one category higher than you normally could. So a mortal epic fighter could gain divine abilities by expending enough feat slots. Though its suggested that esoteric powers are gained after an adventure (you have to complete a certain adventure/quest before you can obtain them).

Edit-- Also, another mark against Immortal Spellcasters, their Caster Level. With the hefty LA, its going to be just above half their Character Level, even with the Divine Bonus.

Personally I think Heighten Spell would work here.

 

[Belzamus]

Actually, I take back saying that Immortal spellcasters are weak. I just realized that 6 Automatic Metamagic Capacity feats allow them to Persist every spell with a duration, making ALL of their buff spells last all day.

 

[Deinos]

Is it just me, or do casters get absolutely devalued in Ascension? I mean, once Alter Reality starts getting thrown around it seems like they lose their main advantage.

I disagree. But first, I'd point out that I feel psionic characters have the biggest advantage in Ascension, with epic overchannel letting them double their manifester level (at the mere mere price of 2d8 damage per overchanneling level...).

However, what causes me an incessant amount of irritation in 3e is the way level adjustment screws over casters and even turning undead levels. Long before 3e even came out, I felt that deities and possibly even angels should turn undead as clerics of their level. I'm not saying they should in IH, but there should be some correlation between being a disciple, prophet, or deity and being a cleric. As is, it feels more like two utterly unrelated systems jammed together.

But never underestimate the way a deific spellcaster can make use of spells to force multiple high DC fort and will saves vs instant death or losing. In particular, you're going to be able to use timestop EVERY DAMN ROUND in many cases at high epic play. A lot of enemies are immune to instant death, a lot of enemies can escape forcecages, and so forth... but a deific caster just has so many freaking options.

Not to mention that a spellcaster is likely to have a higher DvR than anyone else, considering he can wish up his own apertures.

 

[Belzamus]

Time Stop loses its efficacy around level 40 or so and becomes a joke by 100. Celerity on the other hand, is always useful.

And I'll mention that it's been ages since I've even looked at my Immortals stats, but at a glance, my First One of magic (double)...will, most of the time, rely on her insane Touch attack and Gaze that total roughly 150,000 damage per round at almost no chance of missing or failing except against opponents with Interdimensional and such, which would be just as big a hindrance to her spells.

I suppose if she was really going all out, she'd resort to spells (or Alter Reality) and start flinging 30+ 250,000 damage fireballs per round, but...that's hardly ever necessary.

Also, it is far, FAR easier to boost saves than DCs the higher up you go. Couple that with increasing miss chance and high Touch ACs and Save-or-Die/Suck spells become rapidly less useful.

Given the horrible, horrible things your opponent can do to you if they get even a single round, you want to attack with overwhelming force and kill them in a single wave of attacks, whether it's a storm of high-damage critical hits or a salvo of damaging spells. Hoping on a chance failure for a Save or Die isn't the smartest move unless you have the corresponding portfolio to trump immunity and such.

Oh, also, for comparison, she probably caps out around 7 to 8 million damage per round. One of her warlike counterparts is hitting at

(50 attacks) 325d100 +6,279 +325d100 Divine Electricity 16-20/x13, maximized, auto-hitting + a full power attack at a ratio of 312:1 when charging with a 240 Base Attack Bonus to sacrifice. (that's 74,000 damage per hit)

So...yeah. Melee > magic. He does more than her entire round in one hit out of his fifty. Though...I have a feeling she'd win anyways if they fought. She's far more defensive than offensive.

Anyway, just an anecdote. I'm sure casters have there place and can hold their own well enough. Melee though, just slaughters things (and this is WITH my divine, cosmic, and transcendental metamagics massively increasing the damage from spells)
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[Deinos]

Time Stop loses its efficacy around level 40 or so and becomes a joke by 100.

Er... well, I wouldn't really argue otherwise. My main experience with epic level gaming has been level 30-50, pre-IH stuff, to be honest. I haven't much analyzed anything past level 60-70.

If you're going to be a high level magic user, not focused on shapeshifting into a better melee combatant, like the druid, why not look at the Cosmic Descryer PrC? Every 4 levels, you get +4 HD to most summons, so at level 101 or so, you're summoning 98 or so HD creatures. With a pinch of metamagic, each individual monster summoning spell, could itself summon around 4-8, 90-95 HD, monsters. If you're a double portfolio character, you can easily be summoning 180 HD creatures by that time, and (again I'm not too well versed as to why Time Stop sucks at level 100) you can conceivably be summoning HORDES of level 180 creatures per round.

Melee characters have always been the ones to dish out the pain in hand to hand, but magic characters are the ones who, so many times per day, just spew out billions of minions that power attack everything into oblivion.

Also, I noticed the magic portfolio lets you create +50% HD constructs. Considering how obscenely powerful things like triple advanced ironwyrm golems (Draconomicon) are, you'd think that the IH Bestiary golems would likewise be just as ridiculous, even at the first one level.

 

[Belzamus]

1. Time Stop falls apart because of
a.) Spell Stowaway
b.) Epic Ward spells
c.) Slipstream
d.) Contingencies

The higher up you go, the more prevalent these become. By 100, everyone who's made it that far has some form of counter to Time Stop.

2. WotC was obviously not designed to work in tandem with the IH, and some things from 1st party books interact in ways the original designers could not possibly have foreseen. For example, the Cosmic Descryer was certainly not designed with the Bestiary's incredibly nasty high level monsters in mind. At the very least, it needs some sort of cap. Bringing in line with Adjuration somewhat would be a start.

3. The IH is filled to bursting with diverse, powerful abilities and feats. It effectively negates the need for any other books besides core and the ELH. Adding more is simply introducing more unknown variables into a system they weren't designed for.

4. This is personal preference, but my group always had something of an armistice on optimizing with the IH. Considering how easy it is to break wide in half by combining synergistic abilities, we always agreed not to optimize to the ULTIMATE degree, because, frankly, it's utterly unnecessary; the system is already designed to make your characters power houses. Why make your DM do extra work by recalculating your effective Encounter Level to make sure you're facing appropriately challenging monsters, when you can just keep it sane and use them out of the box most of the time?

5. And this relates to 4, as you get higher and higher, your list of stats, abilities, portfolios, etc becomes increasingly long. My First Ones are designed with utter simplicity in mind, not even taking class levels, and they end in the range of 6 to 10 typed pages delineating what they're capable of. When you start dipping into three dozen prestige classes to optimize TO THE MAX, you're going to end up with a character sheet the size of a novel, and also, you'll have so many options that you'll never, possibly, be able to keep them all straight.

That's all just based on my experiences, though. I have, however, designed, statted out, and tested an entire pantheon from the Time Lord down to epic mortals.

Also...the IH golems aren't ridiculous? Are you serious? Force Golem, anyone? Orichalcum? Diamond? Mercury? Ioun, for Cthulu's sake?! I've used all of the Golems in the Bestiary, and barring some generous knowledge checks from the party (I felt bad and gave them hints on how to win) they all would have been TPKs easily. I mean, come on, look at the Orichalcum Guardian against a level 60 party. "Hey, look, a party 20 miles away. PLASMA BREATH for 7,000 damage! LOL, no more party." I fail to see how any advanced Golem from WotC can even come close. An ambush by Force Golems on a party who's never faced is almost impossible to escape. If the wizard forgot to pack True Seeing, have fun getting stun-locked and pummeled every round.

And...wow, I'm ranting. What the Hell? I don't even play this game anymore!

Sorry if I got a bit heated there, not mad at you or anything.

Last note, again, the higher you go, the more things change. When you summon those billions of minions, odds are that they're going to fried as collateral damage in a single round by a Cosmic Storm or some such. Or, since spells are so awesome, Resonating Banishment. Bye bye. Plus, minions get laughable at higher levels, it's absurd. Just try summoning a dozen Seraphim to fight a First One. See how well that works.

Edit: also, again, at higher levels, either you annihilate the enemy utterly in one round, or they do the same to you. Gating in an army avails you nothing. It all comes down to who can land an overkill damaging strike first (and hopefully you can keep your foe dead!). One thing that would be freaking epic is a First One of double Magic with cleric levels who has hundreds of Contingent True Resurrections stored that still function even in Dead Magic Zones.