Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder - sell me

IuztheEvil said:

We have made a number of adjustments to the game to deal with some of the problems of high level play. That said, there is no "big ticket" fix.

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I wouldn't expect a major overhaul, with 3e compatibility being a major development item.

IuztheEvil said:

There are some math issues involved with high level play that were impossible for us to circumvent, but we have taken numerous other small steps to address it from other angles.

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Some of the 3e math issues are the the further from level 1 you get the more divergent the bonuses get for BAB, saves, spell DCs outstripping save bonuses and HP to a lesser extent. I assume that is what you are referring too. This couldn't be tackled without a major uncompatable overhaul of all the basic modifiers.

IuztheEvil said:

That said, we have made some adjustments to some of the classes that most considered overpowered at high levels. This includes altering some spells and class abilities to pull these classes to a spot a bit more in line with the others. Of course, we adjusted the weaker classes as well to make up for some of their deficiencies. I am not going to go into the details at this time, but you will begin to see them in the upcoming previews.

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Will there be a conversion document for people to use to convert older materials to PF, something like a change file listing all of the changes to the 3.5 SRD?

IuztheEvil said:

I do wish that folks wouldn't just write us off, out of turn, without any real insight into the final game, but I am also a realist. I know the book will not be for everyone, no matter the final form.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

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I don't think that people will write this product off. It is literally the elephant in the room for WotC. For me personally, after hearing what I have, and researching what I have, I am looking forward to this product. As for having all of my 3e pet peeves being dealt with I know two of them have from my research and two of them still looms - multiclassing and prep time- care to give any insight...

I'm not really sure what I'm going to do about Pathfinder and I'll be at a crossroads with it soon. I presently buy all the Pathfinder APs, modules, chronicles and companion stuff - so pretty much the whole shebang. But I'm a 3.5 gamer and have a lot (and I mean a lot!) of material, which I'd like to get good use out of. So the main thing for me will be about compatability - if using Pathfinder with my existing material is akin to using 3.5 with 3.0 then there's every chance I'll adopt it, assuming we (ie myself and the players) are happy with the changes.

If not, then it's a question of whether I start a new group to try it out, or not bother at all. Obviously, if I elect to not bother, then I probably won't be picking up much more stuff from Paizo - maybe just some of the chronicles. And that would make me a little sad, as I'm a real fan of theirs and want to continue to support what I thought was a really brave decision to take up the 3.5 baton.

So, I'm really undecided at the moment and looking forward to the release. Either way I'll be picking up the core book to check it out.

billd91 said:

Why wouldn't everyone want to play one? Because we want to play other things? This is about playing in a role-playing game and not a board game.

Wizards and other full casters may have the flexibility to be very powerful, but reigning supreme? That's never been my experience with a well-run game with a variety of challenges.

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Did you miss the part where they ADDED more to wizard, then the guy I responded to said they raign supreme...so you can talk about variety all you want but it is a dishonnest arguement when I responded to "Raign Supreme"

DaveMage said:

The idea is not to increase a wizard's capability compared with a fighter, it is to increase the appeal of a straight wizard over a wizard + arcane spellcasting prestige class(es).

With 3.5 RAW, there's very little incentive to play a straight wizard beyond level 10 when there are prestige classes that give you the same benefits + extra significant prestige class benefits. The same problem applies to 3.5 RAW sorcerers.

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couldn't we fix this by not allowing +1 caster level prestige classes...that way you have to choose cosmic power spells, or class features...instead of making every wizard MORE powerful...


again when played by a creative and smart player Wizards have what I like to call a swiss army win button at high levels. Not Wiz X/ Loremater Y/ Archmage Z.... just a wizard level 17...why ADD more when you can just as easily balance it with the other classes.

the real joke is wizard is NOT the most powerful class, but the game is set up so that some classes (Spellcasters) have more options and more power then others. I want to know WHY?



By the way the real sad part is I think Piazo is a good company for CS issues, and it is run by gamers, so I really want to support them. However I feel everytime I do I get bite for it.
I want balance. I have been calling for it for almost 10 years now (right around 3.5 complete warrior comeing out) that I want to sit down and say "What do I want to play" and if it is X class I know I can be just as kick but ad Y class, just in a diffrent way.
I read this thread to try like the OP to be sold on buying a company I like, and I feel it is just more the same...can someone tell me what makes this the best $60 I can spend?

IuztheEvil said:

It is the best answer we could come up with that did not require a complete redesign of a wide variety of game elements. Changing BAB and save progressions is a big shift that affects a wide variety of rules, from feats and spells, to prestige classes and all of the higher CR monsters. There are other ways to affect some change in this regard, and we have enacted everything we saw as possible while still maintaining compatibility with the existing material.

I can see that you do not agree with this philosophy and that is fine. We had some set guidelines in designing this game, and while they were open to interpretation, redesigning a wide portion of the game beyond X level was going a bit too far.

I believe that some of the problems with high level play have been resolved to my satisfaction. Whether or not the gaming public agrees will probably not be known until some time after the core book is released and folks get a chance to work with all of the rules.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

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Are you guys going to address the over use of DR, resistances, and immunities now, or later? I think you can address this part of high level play now, since your doing your own Monsters Book. I think you can also address the complexity of monster creation now as well, again, since you are doing your own monsters book. I agree you cannot change the saves problems without seriously breaking compatibility with original 3.5E, but I see you guys writing a "Core Pathfinder" rule book where everything that makes the game break down at high level is replaced with new core rule assumptions.


Personally I do not see "save or die" spells and effects as being part of what is broken. That's only an issue for DM's who also remove raise dead, reincarnation, and resurrection from the game. Personally I wouldn't replace the apprehension caused by such rolls for anything, especially when they make it and the exuberant cheers explode. Can't have that kind of excitement without such spells providing such intense perils. Yeah, dying is a bummer, but your coming back, if you want to, in my games, and if you died well, without any penalties what so ever.

Anyways, I look forward to PF and the changes you make in the future.

the guy I responded to said they raign supreme.

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Is this conjuring images of a D&D Iron Chef for anyone else?

"And here they are, the immortal champions of culinary skill, your Iron Chefs!"
"Which Iron Chef is our challenger going to take on tonight?" "Iron Chef Illithid!"
"Tonight's theme ingredient is....flumph!"
"And the Iron Chef appears to be making a consumme of the flumph, using as stock what appears to be that classic ingredient of illithid cuisine...brains."
"Ku-san! The Iron Chef tells me that he's making an brains omelette, and that the ingredient in the bowl you saw was brains."

The Kyngdoms said:

I'm not really sure what I'm going to do about Pathfinder and I'll be at a crossroads with it soon. I presently buy all the Pathfinder APs, modules, chronicles and companion stuff - so pretty much the whole shebang. But I'm a 3.5 gamer and have a lot (and I mean a lot!) of material, which I'd like to get good use out of. So the main thing for me will be about compatability - if using Pathfinder with my existing material is akin to using 3.5 with 3.0 then there's every chance I'll adopt it, assuming we (ie myself and the players) are happy with the changes.

If not, then it's a question of whether I start a new group to try it out, or not bother at all. Obviously, if I elect to not bother, then I probably won't be picking up much more stuff from Paizo - maybe just some of the chronicles. And that would make me a little sad, as I'm a real fan of theirs and want to continue to support what I thought was a really brave decision to take up the 3.5 baton.

So, I'm really undecided at the moment and looking forward to the release. Either way I'll be picking up the core book to check it out.

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The best way to convert is to definitely do it the way you converted from 3E to 3.5E. You use the new Pathfinder book as your PH and DMG, and all other books will largely fall in line behind Pathfinders rules. Sure, your going to have to re-tweak skills lists and maybe feats, but that easy stuff. I am sure people are going to cry like their arms got cut off because such changes are such excruciatingly painful work, but hopefully most of us will find things very easy to adapt to. Then again, thinking back on how people claimed getting rid of the alchemy and scrying skills made their 3E completely incompatible with their 3.5E... Pathfinder is in trouble. Hopefully people who think such minor things are game breaking are a very minor part of the gaming community. Considering how much buying 3E products essentially died after 3.5E came out Pathfinder will likely be found by many to be completely incompatible with their 3.5E.

Hopefully 3E players have become much more sophisticated since then.

So far the Beta rules have played really well in our play-test campaign, and we've all enjoyed the changes (especially the cleric's and the paladin's players).

There's something that I noticed about high-level fighters; namely, that many "qualifying" feats (Cleave, Overhand Chop, Vital Strike, Dodge etc.) are still viable tactical options at high levels. For example, Dodge scales up to +2 with your Acrobatics skill, and if you move, you can still use Overhand Chop. Also, in some situations Improved Vital Strike may be the "best" choice, while Great Cleave or Devastating Blow or Backswing (to name a few) may serve better under different circumstances.

I wish Iron Will et al. would also scale up with your levels (+1 per 4 levels or so), but maybe we'll see that in PF RPG 2nd ed.?

Treebore said:

The best way to convert is to definitely do it the way you converted from 3E to 3.5E. You use the new Pathfinder book as your PH and DMG, and all other books will largely fall in line behind Pathfinders rules. Sure, your going to have to re-tweak skills lists and maybe feats, but that easy stuff. I am sure people are going to cry like their arms got cut off because such changes are such excruciatingly painful work, but hopefully most of us will find things very easy to adapt to. Then again, thinking back on how people claimed getting rid of the alchemy and scrying skills made their 3E completely incompatible with their 3.5E... Pathfinder is in trouble. Hopefully people who think such minor things are game breaking are a very minor part of the gaming community. Considering how much buying 3E products essentially died after 3.5E came out Pathfinder will likely be found by many to be completely incompatible with their 3.5E.

Hopefully 3E players have become much more sophisticated since then.

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*looks around*

Um...Not really.

I'm able to convert a 3.5 adventure with the Pathfinder Beta rules pretty easily, but as I'm slowly learning in my advanced age (37) alot of gamers arent satisfied unless all or most of the work is done for them.

Look at players, there are a fair amount of them who tally up their bonuses each time they roll the dice for something instead of having a tally (or 3 for several cirumstances) and adding the dice roll to it. If those same people are the ones who are sometimes DMing games then...

ShinHakkaider said:

*looks around*

Um...Not really.

I'm able to convert a 3.5 adventure with the Pathfinder Beta rules pretty easily, but as I'm slowly learning in my advanced age (37) alot of gamers arent satisfied unless all or most of the work is done for them.

Look at players, there are a fair amount of them who tally up their bonuses each time they roll the dice for something instead of having a tally (or 3 for several cirumstances) and adding the dice roll to it. If those same people are the ones who are sometimes DMing games then...

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Yeah, thats what I am afraid of. I'm just going to have to hope that the groups I used to game with are far more representative of the gamer market than ENWorld and RPGnet has. The groups I gamed with had no problems mixing 3E in with their 3.5E. Then again, they were also smart enough to total up all their mods once, write them down, and then add them to their dice rolls. So, we will see...

IuztheEvil said:

I am not going to go into the details at this time...

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That is a shame. Preorders may hang in the balance. [though not mine, i already have made my preorder.

IuztheEvil said:

I do wish that folks wouldn't just write us off, out of turn, without any real insight into the final game,

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Well, when the folks get real insight into the final game, some of them may change their tune.